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    Posted: August 06 2019 at 10:07
^ Very marshy it is too at the moment .
"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2019 at 08:45
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

...
Having said that, would I cover Stratosfear ? Or produce an extended version ? Could do, much more difficult given the stuff I have. I'm set up, deliberately, for "early TD". That's the stuff I most enjoy. 
... 

"3 AM at the Border of the Marsh from Okefenokee", 

Might be a more interesting redo, since you know that this is a compliment to the Bernie and Krause piece of electronica several years earlier. And you could do your own complimentary detail to both of them in one shot ... we can even title it "3 AM at Dave's House by a Marsh in England".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2019 at 06:07
Arturia VSTs are quite well done, but not a patch (no pun intended) on the real thing, unfortunately. The sound is pretty dead in comparison. The Moog VST is pretty limited and disappointing.

They're OK, as - let's face it - very few people are going to actually splash out on a modular synth, unless they're as weird as I am, but it's really like having a simulated F-16 compared to the real thing. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2018 at 20:41
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

...
... I'd still scrape together the funds for a Roland Jupiter 8 were I to find one in nice shape. I'd definitely sell off some stuff, and borrow the rest. (:

The VST available from Arturia is, probably ... a bit easier to use and do something with ... but even for me, it is a lot already, but some serious fun playing around with it.

I do not mind the VST's as long as they are clean. According to some folks on the Arturia board, the VST is actually more flexible than the real thing, since you can do more with it a lot faster ... but getting all those buttons together through your MIDI board ... could be an issue ... not enough usable switches to play with, although I have never tried using this inside a DAW ... on my Oxygen Midi Keyboard, I have the 9 sliders and the 9 buttons setup for just about everything from left to right, and it only leaves the stuff with the resulting sounds to do manually.

It's great fun, and enjoyable, and probably a good learning tool, rather than spend on the actual unit.

I wish I could create the keyboard sounds better and have some sounds that are so smooth and sweet all around ... the samples they have are the worse ever defined!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2018 at 10:56
Thanks for the invite, if I ever travel the 4,634 miles from my place to Macclesfield I'll drop you a line LOL

>>The problem is also that what you build is not guaranteed to work. And then it becomes... interesting.

That's the main reason back in '81 I bought a Sequential Circuits Pro-One vs buying a PAIA Proteus kit.  I'd ordered the Proteus schematic and was about to take the next step when I found the Pro-One was only about $100 more with a real warranty.  I could barely scrape together the cash for a Proteus, but knowing my electronic skills were good enough to build the Proteus, but not good enough to troubleshoot if something went wrong, made it an easy choice.  Kind of ironic, as I mentioned in 2015 I was once again considering a home built Eurorack system vs a DSI Prophet 12 and went the way of the Prophet.  Looks like Dave Smith has twice snatched me away from a DIY synth to one of his creations LOL  

Anyway, I couldn't be happier with the P12 and skipping the soldering iron.  Just for fun I created a mock-up of what the P12 front panel might look like if it was a modular synth based on it's 4 OSC, 4 ENV, 4 LFO, 4 Delay, HPF/LPF, 16x2 26-source 96-dest mod matrix architecture:


One thing the mock up doesn't show is a single patch is actually made up of 2 sets of these modules which are pan-able and stack-able up to a limit of 12 total polyphonic voices.

I've been following your modular synth thread and am really impressed with what you've put together (especially after what I learned from my time on MuffWiggler).  In the words of Sarah Winchester..."keep building" and if you ever do an extended remake of Phaedra, let me know LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2018 at 06:57
Pity you're a long way from Macclesfield, you could have a go on mine !!

Have a look at "The mighty modular sequencer" thread in Tech Talk for more details. 

The only way, sadly, to make a modular is to get a soldering iron out or buy second hand. The expense is ridiculous, even doing it on the cheap. A case and power supply will set you back 350, second hand. Before anything goes beep, you need to build one oscillator, one ADSR, one filter and a voltage controlled amplifier. 

Which probably translates to another 800 in kits. And you won't be happy with just a one oscillator system. 

Kits are expensive (although much cheaper than pre-built modules) - the expense begins to tail off when you begin to source your own components. Unfortunately, modulars tend to use some expensive components, such as 9mm Alpha pots and hard to find chips. 

I've just ordered a Monobloc 01 and Monobloc 02 from Frequency Central - look them up. When I've finished soldering them up (2-3 months) I'll have another three oscillators, two filters, a low frequency oscillator, three envelope generators and a voltage controlled amp. Probably about 400 expenditure in kits and components, they would probably have been 1500 off the shelf. And then I need a new case, as I've run out of room - then I need a load of accessory modules, and 1200 has just disappeared. That's probably about a sixth of the amount of stuff in the system. 

I recently put together eight sequencer kits which were either 40 each for components - ie, 320, or about 200 each pre-assembled. Easy choice. 

The problem is also that what you build is not guaranteed to work. And then it becomes... interesting. 

You certainly have to be dedicated to build a system, and analogue modular synths are not for everyone. 

However. This is all comparatively cheap, compared to what Tangerine Dream were paying in the 1970's, So I should be comparatively grateful. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 13:26
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

 
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Getting back briefly to equipment (sorry ! ) they sound very much like early Tangerine Dream - unsurprising if you have an early Moog modular (3C, I think.) Most of the Tangerine Dream sound is a result of the equipment used (hence the tech posts earlier) - back in the 70's, kit was unavailable / unaffordable, now, you can get the same technology more cheaply. It's still ruinously expensive, but you can build your own, and you can build hybrid monsters, with Moog / ARP / Buchla / Korg / Roland elements.
 

LOL, great phrase. While I can't afford any of the good stuff, I'd still scrape together the funds for a Roland Jupiter 8 were I to find one in nice shape. I'd definitely sell off some stuff, and borrow the rest. (:

About 4 years ago, I was seriously considering tackling a life long dream and putting together a monophonic modular system.  I'd owned synths for years beginning with a Pro-One back in 1981, but had never put together a modular system of my own.  In the late 90's I did have a Nord Modular, but just couldn't get on board with virtual modules and patch cords on a PC...I want real physical hardware I can touch.  

Anyway, I setup an account on Muff Wiggler and started learning everything I could.  After about 3 months research, I pretty much decided on the minimum Eurorack modules I wanted in my system and Davesax1965 is dead on, it was absolutely "ruinously expensive" LOL    I concluded for a fraction of the price I could buy a Prophet 12 rack, not have to do (or screw up and troubleshoot) any soldering or assembly myself, and have 12 voice polyphony...so did.  The main reason I chose the P12 is it had the most extensive modulation matrix (26 sources, 97 destinations, 16 slots) I could find in a manufactured polyphonic synth.  To me, the coolest thing about a true modular is the nearly infinite available combinations of modulation sources and destinations and the P12 was the closest option I could find in a pre-built polyphonic synth from a major and respected manufacturer.

Also, while I love the idea of moving patch cords around and tweaking knobs by hand to create each patch, in practice I'd rather give up some of that flexibility for the convenience of patch memory.  Besides, I paired up the P12 with a Behringer BCR2000 to give me a few dozen knobs and buttons for control & I have a Korg MS20 to play with patch cords when the mood hits Wink


Edited by The.Crimson.King - July 25 2018 at 13:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 11:24
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Getting back briefly to equipment (sorry ! ) they sound very much like early Tangerine Dream - unsurprising if you have an early Moog modular (3C, I think.) Most of the Tangerine Dream sound is a result of the equipment used (hence the tech posts earlier) - back in the 70's, kit was unavailable / unaffordable, now, you can get the same technology more cheaply. It's still ruinously expensive, but you can build your own, and you can build hybrid monsters, with Moog / ARP / Buchla / Korg / Roland elements.
 

LOL, great phrase. While I can't afford any of the good stuff, I'd still scrape together the funds for a Roland Jupiter 8 were I to find one in nice shape. I'd definitely sell off some stuff, and borrow the rest. (:
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 11:19
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Thanks, Versilibre. 

Redshift are a band I'd like to listen to a lot more. Some of their early gigs were five miles away from where I live: unfortunately, I'd not heard about them at the time.

Here's their very latest offering. It's all been said this one's really a solo Shreeve album in disguise.)



Selections from Arc's Fracture. A 5-star album!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 11:11
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Funny story. Someone I used to know was offered Tangerine Dream's old Moog. It cost as much as a house. 

So he bought a house. 

He's regretted it ever since. 
 

HAHAHA! Undoubtedly!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 09:26
PS I'm very glad to say that Mosh and I have had a PM and we're friends. Sorry, Mosh !! 

Great passions occasionally produce great arguments. ;-)

If I upset anyone on this forum, I do apologise, it's never intentional. Sometimes I should think a bit deeper before I press POST REPLY - but that's the internet, I suppose !! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 07:20
Enough space to live in it, but mind all those transformers ! ;-)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 06:33
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Funny story. Someone I used to know was offered Tangerine Dream's old Moog. It cost as much as a house.

So he bought a house.

He's regretted it ever since.

Could have been tricky getting a mortgage on the Moog!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 02:03
Funny story. Someone I used to know was offered Tangerine Dream's old Moog. It cost as much as a house. 

So he bought a house. 

He's regretted it ever since. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 01:58
Thanks, Versilibre. 

Redshift are a band I'd like to listen to a lot more. Some of their early gigs were five miles away from where I live: unfortunately, I'd not heard about them at the time. 

Getting back briefly to equipment (sorry ! ) they sound very much like early Tangerine Dream - unsurprising if you have an early Moog modular (3C, I think.) Most of the Tangerine Dream sound is a result of the equipment used (hence the tech posts earlier) - back in the 70's, kit was unavailable / unaffordable, now, you can get the same technology more cheaply. It's still ruinously expensive, but you can build your own, and you can build hybrid monsters, with Moog / ARP / Buchla / Korg / Roland elements. 

So now, I've got more equipment than TD had in 1974, but then again, most bands have more equipment than the Beatles did in 1963, doesn't make them "better than the Beatles" and I'm surprised that anyone could think I'd said "and therefore I'm better than Tangerine Dream".  Inspired by, not better than, and not a copyist. 

Having said that, would I cover Stratosfear ? Or produce an extended version ? Could do, much more difficult given the stuff I have. I'm set up, deliberately, for "early TD". That's the stuff I most enjoy. 

Having done the old fart "Ooo no, don't want to hear an extended version", I've thought about it and yep, I'd give any new music a listen. Why not, eh ? At the end of the day, the quality of the music, the quality of the playing and the quality of the interpretation are perhaps not all that matters, but if someone does a good job, I'll happily listen. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 17:37
Alright, guys. As Greg Lake once sang, lay down your guns. 

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Verslibre came up with a name a page back which I missed - Mark Shreeve. I really liked his stuff in Redshift, I think a lot of their stuff was massively influenced by Phaedra.

Well, that's kind of like saying IQ's massively influenced by Trick of the Tail. It's a given. However, Redshift's got a lot more going on than that. 

I like Arc (the duo of Shreeve & Ian Boddy) more. They're doing the retro thing, too, but their superb 2007 album Fracture is the perfect sequel to Rubycon. I mean perfect. Their previous album Blaze is more stylistically varied, and they even add a live drummer on some tracks. Just great electronic music that's a cut above a lot of the cookie cutter UK stuff (sorry, I'm not trying to be provocative, there's just a lot of it, and in Europe overall).

Shreeve's mid-80s "synth rock" albums are what I like best: Legion and Crash Head. Then there's a live album, Collide, and one more outing, Nocturne, in '95. After that, he formed Redshift with his brother Julian.

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Incidentally, a friend of mine who used to be in a reasonably famous analogue synth band and I keep discussing about doing early TD style stuff - but he's 40 miles away and we both work. Doing an interpretation of Phaedra / Ricochet etc is something we keep talking about. so it would be fairly wrong of me to pull someone up for doing the same "extended" version. Yep, thinking about it, I'd give it a listen. I'm converted. To the idea. 

Why not give Stratosfear/Force Majeure a shake? I know they're more progressive/challenging, but Phaedra/Rubycon/Ricochet have been done to death for the last four decades...



Edited by verslibre - July 24 2018 at 17:38
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 15:47
Verslibre came up with a name a page back which I missed - Mark Shreeve. I really liked his stuff in Redshift, I think a lot of their stuff was massively influenced by Phaedra. 

Incidentally, a friend of mine who used to be in a reasonably famous analogue synth band and I keep discussing about doing early TD style stuff - but he's 40 miles away and we both work. Doing an interpretation of Phaedra / Ricochet etc is something we keep talking about. so it would be fairly wrong of me to pull someone up for doing the same "extended" version. Yep, thinking about it, I'd give it a listen. I'm converted. To the idea. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 15:23
Well, I forgot the first rule of the internet there: never point out to those who don't have the faintest idea of a subject that they don't know what they're talking about.  Otherwise they tend to come back with pages of unbalanced personal insults. 

In the interim, I'll just go back to designing a Roland System 700 style envelope generator in Eagle CAD. With technical help from three very well regarded experts in vintage synth electronics. Apparently they're not really fussy about transistors in the switching stage (I'll get away with BC547's) but I might try 1uf / 10uf tantalum caps in the timing stage rather than electrolytics, as that's what the originals used back in 1976. 

Or I could have just asked Mosh.

(Ladies and gents, please do note that I'm not saying this to appear clever or big headed - I design and build vintage synths as a hobby and will be hopefully releasing a commercial one at some point. I'm just trying to get the point across to certain people that they honestly should perhaps shut up and listen when pulled up on things they know almost nothing about. )

In the interim, could you please note that I've never said I am better than Tangerine Dream butt have only compared myself to them as I do music somewhat similar to them on similar equipment. ) 

Moving on from the little outburst above, been thinking about it and I'd certainly listen to modern extended reinterpretations of old TD stuff, especially Ricochet. I've never quite figured out how to do some elements of Part II. It's a seminal album and I'd listen to an interpretation of it with an open mind. I'm not sure the world at large needs such an interpretation, but hey ho, why not give it a listen ? 



Edited by Davesax1965 - July 24 2018 at 15:25

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 07:51
Hi,

Dave, it's very difficult to discuss music with you, since you know it all, and can not discern the good from the bad, and would rather spend your time defending the greatness of your work and development of sequencers and synthesizers. 

The main fact, still is, that it was done at a time when there was no such a thing, and no one had ever heard anything of the like. it might not be as "strong" or as "important" for you, since you have figured out most of it, however, I do think that if you sit with Christopher Franke, you will get your gonads blown off. It was not easy, at that time, to do what they did, and your constant self-important posts that your knowledge is more important than what happened at the time, is ridiculous and out of time and line.

I supposed that suggesting you to read EF's book, is a dead-loss ... but it goes over a lot of this.

Just so you know, music for me is not a metric exercise like it is for you. It is a visual thing, and sometimes, things happen and sometimes they don't. There isn't a single TD piece that these things do not happen for me, unlike your music, which for me (FOR ME) lacks an inch or two of something, which of course you are not open to (shouldn't be, I agree!), even though sometimes the suggestion is not out of time, place, or line. Sometimes the suggestion is just a side street to the same place, and its inclusion does not interfere with the ends, but it creates another special little moment ... example ... KS's CD with the SW interview and his discussion with an engineer about one specific little moment in a long piece ... that is not a big deal for you and I in the middle of things, as we would not normally catch it, but there it is, and when they replay that segment, it is all of a sudden including something else that makes it better. I'm a writer, and I know well enough that suggestions, for the most part are not useful, but just as you enter the shower in the morning ... booooommmm ... that one suggestion clicked ... you don't know until you try it, but you and I are so determine to "protect" what we supposedly know ... and these "secrets" do not exist!

The way we look at yesterday's music is ridiculous. We do not know how to get out of the top ten syndromme, and take a chill down the stairway to the heavens of music, other than some kind of idealistic thought given to you on a platter with lyrics, the normal of which has nothing to do with the music at all, but one person's thoughts and ideas instead.

You are criticizing a lot of music, almost the same way that folks like Stravinsky, Orff, Schoenberg and so many others were looked at in the previous century ... and I like to say ... have we learned nothing yet? 

I seriously doubt that things were "easy" in those days, as you make it out to be ... also considering that the type of work and music was something that no one else did at the time (well, some did like Beaver and Krause and a handful of others without any public attention!), and what TD was giving you was extraordinary, and a feeling and tripping experience, that most do not show ... I believe that for you it is too much mechanics, not the experience itself or its visual contents and significance to your inside listener, appreciating some novel, or work of art, as EF did so much.

For my tastes, most electronic music did not exactly start out of the gate from "music" ... most of it started out from the "sound" of it, and developed from there, and this is the part that you forgot. I'm not as much about the nuts and buts and bolts of it all, but when it comes to the tripping side and listening side, I would say that ... is what music has been about all along ... unless we get into some fans that think that Mahler and Tchaikovsky, were just adding "filler" to make their "songs" come alive!


Edited by moshkito - July 25 2018 at 08:31
... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 23 2018 at 06:22
"Dave's work is very nice, but for my tastes it is not great, and it lacks one thing that TD did not use for a very long time, until much later ... the dependency on the beat and drum track."

I'm NOT copying TD, Mosh. I sound LIKE TD in places. Believe it or not, I can also hit the mute button on the drum track. If you do or do not like it, I frankly couldn't give an atomic stuff as I didn't write it for you nor am I particularly interested in your opinion of it. 
 
" but saying that it was easy ... IT IS with today's equipment, but it WAS NOT yesterday, when the equipment was not as advanced and controls were not as efficient.
"

Mosh, I'm going to pull you up again for your misinformed posts. I use 10 sequencers. I built 8 of them. All of them use exactly the same technology as was used in 1974 and they are operated in exactly the same way. There is zero difference. 

There used to be a telly programme here in the 70's called "That's Life". One of the "humorous" spots occurred when they got a number of ten year old children and asked them to explain how the television worked. Mosh. 


Edited by Davesax1965 - July 23 2018 at 06:37

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