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Yes -Wakeman "mixed out" out of live performances?

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oldschool71 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Yes -Wakeman "mixed out" out of live performances?
    Posted: July 24 2018 at 07:32
In quite a number of Yes live videos it seems to me that Rick Wakeman cannot be heard in the mix.  Yes, his key parts are there, but when not featured I don't hear him at all though video clearly shows him actively playing.  

For example in Union Tour video's there are times when he can't be heard at all, though all others (including Tony Kaye) are clearly present.

Will be happy to provide specific example if you wish (my first post and not sure about linking yet...)

Thanks in advance for any comments?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 08:38
Can't say I've heard about this and I can't remember from the Union tour. Mind you he hated the album so much he probably turned himself down and ate a curry instead.
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oldschool71 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 09:07
Here's what I'm referring to, one example of MANY that could be given in the single video.
I don't hear Wakeman in the mix at all at these spots when he's in shot
5:57  6:07  17:05  17:43  18:05  (quick shots of him)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO49gHC3tfc

edit: link corrected


Edited by oldschool71 - July 24 2018 at 09:22
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The.Crimson.King View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 09:10
Originally posted by oldschool71 oldschool71 wrote:

Here's what I'm referring to, one example of MANY that could be given in the single video.
I don't hear Wakeman in the mix at all at these spots when he's in shot
5:57  6:07  17:05  17:43  18:05  (quick shots - but just watch thru the )

Your link brings up Blood on the Rooftops...and I can't hear Wakeman at all LOL
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oldschool71 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 09:26
try this:  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO49gHC3tfc
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 09:48
This was more interesting when I thought that Rick played uncredited on Wind and Wuthering! Damn, that would have made a great story!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 09:51
Oh.. you haven't seen those pics of him during the sessions?  I thought everyone has seen those.. :)  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 09:57
I think it a shame to have Wakeman mixed out of 50% of a concert.  To me... that's criminal.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 10:24
I'm not going to pretend that I'm interested in the Union album material and associated concerts, so I'm not familiar with the music that was played by Yes at that time. If Rick Wakeman's keyboard parts were mixed out, that could be for many sound reasons. For example, redundant keyboard parts by Wakeman and Kaye that the mix engineer excised as he found that the music sounded better without the redundant keyboard parts, or that Wakeman's parts were badly recorded and excised. Or that Rick himself was not happy with how he played that night and asked that his rougher parts be mixed out. It's not all cloak and dagger intrigue.

Edited by SteveG - July 24 2018 at 10:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 15:22
Interesting topic. I'll have to watch the videos and hear the sound tracks closely, then I'll get back to you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 16:27
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm not going to pretend that I'm interested in the Union album material and associated concerts, so I'm not familiar with the music that was played by Yes at that time. If Rick Wakeman's keyboard parts were mixed out, that could be for many sound reasons. For example, redundant keyboard parts by Wakeman and Kaye that the mix engineer excised as he found that the music sounded better without the redundant keyboard parts, or that Wakeman's parts were badly recorded and excised. Or that Rick himself was not happy with how he played that night and asked that his rougher parts be mixed out. It's not all cloak and dagger intrigue.

I was at the Union show at the Oakland Arena and I think the above explanation about the mix engineer is highly likely.  After seeing Yes in '76, '77, '78 & '80, the sound at the Union show (the same venue I saw them in '77, '78 & '80) was comparably awful.  Way louder than necessary to the point of discomfort and slight distortion.  Maybe there were just too many egos and competing instruments and someone had to be mixed low (though choosing Kaye's parts over Wakeman's seems an odd choice Confused   

It was clear on the YesYears video during Bruford's interview that he was disgusted with the Union tour and wouldn't surprise me if Wakeman felt the same way and asked to be low in the mix LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 16:40
I know trials and tribulation of the individual members through that period (including Wakeman) but I did see an interview (youtube) where he said that the Union tour was on of the most enjoyable for him.  Of course, it was in an interview and who knows the truth.  I'll try to find and post a link.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 16:56
That's cool, I hope Wakeman and the rest really did have a great time - BB never seemed to have much fun LOL
 
For me the whole joy of the Union show wasn't in hoping to see the most ripping version of Awaken/Khatru/whatever ever performed, it was just fun to celebrate being a Yes fan for all those years and seeing them all together.  My fave part of the show was Bruford & Squire playing their duet in Heart of the Sunrise.  I always wished Moraz had been part of the team.  I could just imagine the sparks flying as Wakeman & Moraz traded Starship Trooper MiniMoog solos Wink


Edited by The.Crimson.King - July 24 2018 at 16:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 17:05
How about Wakeman and Kaye trading solos? That would be...interesting, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 17:10
My interest is not only the music but I find YesYes an interesting concept.  How many bands can say that there were two of them at the same time?  

I love listening to bands and seeing the difference that one person can make. So with YesYes, and the multitude of lineups, you can see I have an endless supply of "research."   And Kaye and Wakeman, with their totally different styles, really is an "oddity."  Yet, with YesYes they both seem to work.  I find that amazing.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 17:13
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

How about Wakeman and Kaye trading solos? That would be...interesting, lol.

Kaye play a solo?  When did that happen?  I've seen Rick's parts played on guitar by Rabin, but I've not seen Kaye play one.... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldschool71 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 18:43
Here's the Wakeman quotes from a BBC documentary (37:00 & ff)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huw0TAb7tm4

Rick Wakeman quote concerning "Union" ALBUM

When the album came out, because of computers, they changed all the parts that I played.  I didn't recognize anything that I had done... and.. The producer had invited all these mates to play on the album as well... The only person who didn't play on the album was my dog.... It's called "Union" (the album).. I call it Onion -  it made me cry every time I heard it.


Rick Wakeman quote concerning "Union" TOUR

Having said all that, we got together and went out and did a tour, and it was my most enjoyable Yes tour that I've ever done.  It was absolutely fantastic"


.


Edited by oldschool71 - July 25 2018 at 14:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 24 2018 at 22:01
Originally posted by oldschool71 oldschool71 wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

How about Wakeman and Kaye trading solos? That would be...interesting, lol.

Kaye play a solo?  When did that happen?  I've seen Rick's parts played on guitar by Rabin, but I've not seen Kaye play one.... 
I have read somewhere there was another keyboard player behing the stage who played Kaye´s solos in Union-tour...and he´s just pretending to play them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 07:30
think this has occurred to me ---but will have to revisit ---he is def heard loud and clear on the ABWH live material and he's very in your face on the studio album which I have been listening to lately and loving it. He should have stayed with that line upWink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2018 at 12:03
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

He should have stayed with that line upWink

I think BB would have preferred that as well!  I believe in Bruford's autobio, he says he was really angry when the record exec's decided to merge both versions of Yes to cash in on Union instead of supporting a 2nd ABWH album.  It demonstrates a really disturbing fact of the music biz that musicians seem to have much less say than we think about who they play with, how much they tour, how often they release albums, etc Disapprove


Edited by The.Crimson.King - July 25 2018 at 12:07
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