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Closing the database?

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CPicard View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 04 2018 at 12:18
Can we say that the evolution of progressive rock has hit its best, nowadays?
Is it really useful to add more bands to the PA database? Are new "progressive" bands really prog?
I mean, now we have metal bands like Opeth or Metallica in the database, and some people are talking about "progressive rap" - but is it really progressive? Isn't progressive rock dying of a too important dilution into pop music?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2018 at 14:13
This feels like an overreaction. (Although if Progressive Rap ever gets added (which I don't think it will), then yes, it's time to burn this mother down. :p)  Should Metallica be here? Of course not. Have the metal subgenres taken some liberties? I think so, but I find this to be a lesser problem compared to adding artists that obviously are not connected to rock at all (or not connected to musicality at all). 

A better solution would be a narrower field of entrants and perhaps stricter rules for admittance. Of course there could be ulterior motives when it comes to adding things and some people do think casting the net as wide as possible is the correct course (Which I think it's obvious I think dilutes the product). But I sincerely doubt anything will be formalized or radically changed in this day and age, so for better or worse I think it's just something we will have to live with. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2018 at 14:31
In my view it's two totally different issues whether there are many bands here that shouldn't be here, or whether development has stalled and no new band adds anything valuable anymore. I think the latter would be a ridiculous statement. I'd think that bands for which it can be argued that it was very (too) generous to let them in come from all periods. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2018 at 18:26
The tendency to add new bands/genres will always be there, but are we talking about progressive music, progressive rock, or prog? depending on what are we talking about, we could come up with quite different answers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2018 at 19:11
It is an interesting suggestion and not without merit.   This site was meant as a historical and referential archive and has fulfilled that purpose.   Though both old & new artists should still be added, an amount of limitation or conservation regarding the significant progressive rock elements in an artists work could be in order.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 04:18
Is adding new artists really a big deal? Am I missing something here?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kotro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 04:42
I've been here since 2004. In terms of adding music that isn't Progressive Rock, well, that's a barrier the database jumped a long, long time ago (10 years or more). And it was a good thing, IMO - not all progressive music is rock, and a lot of non-rock music will definitely appeal to prog-rockers. Made some very interesting discoveries along the way that I wouldn't be able to find otherwise, so genres be damned. 

Keep on adding, I say!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aussie-Byrd-Brother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 04:48
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Isn't progressive rock dying of a too important dilution into pop music?

Um, sure....if it was still the Eighties?!

But seriously, that hasn't been a problem now for...I don't know, almost thirty years now! I couldn't begin to estimate the hundreds or more of prog-related bands active since the late Eighties/early Nineties that don't operate anywhere close to pop.

And even the melodic tune based ones will usually offer plenty of inventive instrumentation to keep things interesting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Squonk19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 05:35
^ I agree. There is some great melodic prog rock being produced in recent years which is more complex, intriguing and inventive than stuff from the 80s where 'pop' success was being targeted by many bands.

I think the 'popular' charts are now so far removed from even pop/prog or melodic prog, that groups are just focused on making music they like playing - sometimes with a nod to the past sure, but also looking at ways of fusing together styles without barriers.

Don't think this is the time to consider 2018 as Year Zero - keep the door open....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 06:07
HELL NO! Progarchives has always been a great way for me to find new exciting bands. Closing the database would close possibly the only door to amazing fresh music that's being made.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 06:33
With the decline of the record industry due to piracy, the need for modern prog artists to go commercial or fuse prog with pop in order to gain record sales is over and done with. I can't think of any current prog groups like Spock's Beard, Marillion or Big Big Train, etc. that are doing anything along those lines. I think that the problem comes down to what we regard as prog nowadays and if this newer music should be open to PA.

Edited by SteveG - August 05 2018 at 10:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 09:33
Hi,

I'm of the opinion that the definition of the genre was done by folks that were not as attuned to music and its varied history, that they invented an arbitrary set of conditions, to define what is "progressive" and then later, "prog".

The problem is that all of those conditions exist in all music and in many things that we do not consider they should not be called music. 

So, to satisfy different versions, we create sub-categories, some of which are totally off kilter and their description is the silliest of them all … like "symphonic", which is something that many "progressive" bands actually are, and is a large part of their attraction … however, HOW it is symphonic seems to be the issue … so a band with 11 keyboards is symphonic, but 7th Wave is not. And then you got problems. Ange may be progressive, but never symphonic? Weird, and specially considering they used two keyboard players to make their music even better.

Pretty soon, and I'm waiting with my ice cream cone and tutu, we will have rap and symphonic married … and then you will see, how we really screwed up all these definitions and killed the mode altogether.

The term itself, is limiting to the music, since ALL MUSIC IS PROGRESSIVE, and it has been a GIANT PROGRESSION FOR OVER 500 OR MORE YEARS … but we refuse to accept that. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:23
I don't think it makes sense to ever lock the doors and say we've already added all the prog that ever was, is or will be.  That would be like marine biologists saying they've decided that they have found all the deep sea species that could possibly be so they'll stop looking.  Whether it's some obscure 70's prog band from Vatican City that released 50 copies of a never before heard prog masterpiece, or a new band influenced by the old masters, there's always more prog out there to discover Wink

I do think though that with all the subgenres and some bands we've included that we've cast too wide a net and diluted the meaning of progressive rock...but hey...that genie's out of the bottle so there's nothing to be done but scour the PA database to find bands you like and skip the rest...


Edited by The.Crimson.King - August 05 2018 at 11:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:46
Is it a problem for the admins and mods to keep it open..? If not,  then let it be.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:50
Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

I've been here since 2004. In terms of adding music that isn't Progressive Rock, well, that's a barrier the database jumped a long, long time ago (10 years or more). And it was a good thing, IMO - not all progressive music is rock, and a lot of non-rock music will definitely appeal to prog-rockers. Made some very interesting discoveries along the way that I wouldn't be able to find otherwise, so genres be damned. 

Keep on adding, I say!
 

Except this is a progressive rock website not a progressive music website. And I say this as someone who likes a lot of jazz and 'out' music...but I'm ok with my favorite music not being included here. Also, just because mistakes were made in the past doesn't mean mistakes have to be made in the future. If this was something more important than an internet database that would be a pretty backwards logic to guide decisions. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 18:12
If it bothers you to read about new music, only click on reviews of relics from the past. There are HUNDREDS of great PROG ROCK groups (like Anekdoten and Anglagaard) that I've discovered on this site and hundreds of new prog bands that aren't even listed (CuDa/KrishNa/CuDa; Papadios, This Picture, etc.) I don't want an archive devoted to dinosaurs, I want what we have -- a site that acknowledges the masters of the past while introducing us to the wonders of the present.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HemispheresOfXanadu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 19:09
Yes. Let's stagnate.

pro·gres·sive

/prəˈɡresiv/

adjective

  • 1.happening or developing gradually or in stages; proceeding step by step:"a progressive decline in popularity"synonyms:continuingcontinuousincreasinggrowingdeveloping... more
  • 2.(of a group, person, or idea) favoring or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas:"a relatively progressive governor"

noun

  • 1.a person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas.
  • 2.a progressive tense or aspect:"the present progressive"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 19:45
As far as i see it, the site wants to attract new members and limiting to the golden years of prog would surely be a death sentence that the captchas haven't been able to complete.

The premise of this site is to be the ULTIMATE PROG WEBSITE. That includes prog related which has certainly not been without its controversy and confusion (speaking from personal experience), but despite the site not being perfect, it pretty much fulfills its objective.

If we want to improve things, i'd be more for tagging by albums individually over bands therfore we could distinguish more easily which albums are progressive and which are not.

Bands like Metallica, Queen, Led Zeppelin should surely be here under prog related because they definately contributed to prog rock / metal by having tracks or qualities of prog despite not fully being so.

Think of these inclusions as if prog is a pure breed border collie and prog related as hybrid mixes of prog and non-prog.

Having said that, there are certainly bands that got added by mistake it seems but oh well. Don't go to those pages Wacko

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 20:09
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

If we want to improve things, i'd be more for tagging by albums individually over bands therfore we could distinguish more easily which albums are progressive and which are not.

Wrote a whole long thing that captcha deleted, but the gist is that I agree with most of the points here. I think prog is still expanding, and I think Wobbler's latest masterpiece is a great indication as to why the database should remain open.

The other part was in support of this idea. Both of our brother/sister/whatnot websites, Jazz Archives and Metal Music Archives, do genre tags by album, and I think it's a great idea that helps increase specificity and clarity of the website. I see it being useful for ProgArchives in two cases: for bands who, despite having some incredible prog releases, have long periods in which very little or none of their material was prog (e.g. Genesis, Queen, Queensr˙che); and for bands who span various prog sub-genres. There are several examples of this last one, like King Crimson, Kayo Dot, Anathema, Oceansize, and more, but the most notable one in my mind is Porcupine Tree. I was honestly surprised when I first saw them categorised as heavy prog on the website, because their first four albums, as well as most of their releases from their early days (1991-1997) are almost undeniably psych-prog/space rock.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 21:27
^ i think most of us agree it would be a great thing. I think the problem resides in going through the massive database and changing them all. As someone who worked on MMA specifically tagging EVERY Buckethead album, i can tell you that it is a chore but of course we could start slowly and cautiously, still though i think it would be a welcome upgrade :)

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