Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Closing the database?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Closing the database?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
TiddK View Drop Down
Forum Groupie
Forum Groupie
Avatar

Joined: August 08 2018
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 75
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TiddK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Closing the database?
    Posted: August 09 2018 at 04:36
Interesting discussion. Just to throw my two pennorth into the mix:

I think there are two distinct strains of 'prog' that could be usefully separated.

1. Truly progressive acts, which in the modern era would mean Goldfrapp (at her best), Mercury Rev, Steven Wilson, The Besnard Lakes, Explosions In The Sky, and the like.

2. Bands that hark back to the classic 'prog' era of the 70s and try to recreate it (which I regard as NOT progressive!). Bands I'd put in that category - and this is in no way a reflection on the quality of their rock music - would be artists like IQ and Big Big Train.

There's a lot more to be said about progressive genres (let's not forget that soul music in the form  of The Temptations post-69, Sly Stone, Stevie Wonder, etc, were truly progressive in every sense that we mean by it), but I'd best leave it there for now, as a noob!
Back to Top
ReactioninG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 26 2017
Location: Massachusetts
Status: Offline
Points: 156
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ReactioninG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2018 at 16:03
It is possible that there will be a prog rock revival. The eighties has been creeping back into popular music, at least certain aesthetic elements of it. Music right now is at a total impasse. If there was a big change in the way it is distributed the floorboards will fall right through and some new and interesting music might see the light of day. It would probably call upon the past, the accomplishments of the 60s and 70s in particular, and you might see a real mirror of the Progressive Rock movement in that new music.
Back to Top
addictedlabel View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: July 29 2018
Location: Moscow, Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote addictedlabel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2018 at 01:34
I think problem is not in new music, new prog  music, genre debates (i believe it's some kind of crying of people that too old to check new music, u know, it's ok thing when we get older then 30\35 for most people, some people have than problem younger or later).

Problem in database, that need hands to support it, update it, why you making own database when you have lots of databases, like RYM, discogs, musicbrain etc, maybe it's wasting of time and resources? Maybe PA need some integration to free resources for reviews, ratings, topics, comments?
Back to Top
Man With Hat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team

Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 06 2018 at 00:27
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ i think most of us agree it would be a great thing. I think the problem resides in going through the massive database and changing them all. As someone who worked on MMA specifically tagging EVERY Buckethead album, i can tell you that it is a chore but of course we could start slowly and cautiously, still though i think it would be a welcome upgrade :)
 

IIRC that problem lies with the system itself not supporting such a feature. It would require an upgrade which has been deemed to problematic to make for whatever reason. A higher up can correct me if my memory fails.
(I may be confusing this with something else, as there have been many things that have been suggested for this place. :p) 
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
Back to Top
proghaven View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: July 28 2013
Location: Moscow RUSSIA
Status: Offline
Points: 33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote proghaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 23:35
No we cannot say that the evolution of prog rock HAS hit its best. We are aware only of what was but not of what's to come. Only 50 years of evolution have passed at the moment. Only half a century. Let's avoid rushing.

If we insist that Prog Archives is 'your ultimate prog ROCK resource', yes the policy in adding new bands to the database may be more strict. But if the current prog is less rocky than before, if the idea of prog widens and even slightly gets blurred, why not to replace with 'your ultimate prog MUSIC resource'? And why a delution of prog into pop cannot be considered a delution of pop into prog? Depends on visual angle I'd say...

As for Metallica, personally I would be happy to throw it away from the PA database (and not only Metallica). But what's wrong with 'progressive rap' if it finally turns out? If metal can be progressive, why rap cannot? at least in theory?
Back to Top
tempest_77 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2018
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Points: 1662
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 23:04
Wasn't really what I was trying to say, I was just supporting the idea as I think it would help more accurately categorise certain artists' discographies.

Edit: While on the topic of things I wish we could inherit from MMA, I've just discovered that MMA allows half stars. I'll leave it there.


Edited by tempest_77 - August 05 2018 at 23:31
I use they/them pronouns (feel free to ask me about this!)

Check out my music on my bandcamp!
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7678
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 22:59
^ ^ Guys, please don't invent bicycle. Bands/artists are in PA database, PA visitors add their new releases. Nobody knows without listening whether these releases are progressive, regressive etc. It may be clear from reviews.

As for me, it's more important to know how good or bad the album is, regardless of its "progressiveness".
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14720
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 21:27
^ i think most of us agree it would be a great thing. I think the problem resides in going through the massive database and changing them all. As someone who worked on MMA specifically tagging EVERY Buckethead album, i can tell you that it is a chore but of course we could start slowly and cautiously, still though i think it would be a welcome upgrade :)

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
tempest_77 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 06 2018
Location: Maryland
Status: Offline
Points: 1662
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 20:09
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

If we want to improve things, i'd be more for tagging by albums individually over bands therfore we could distinguish more easily which albums are progressive and which are not.

Wrote a whole long thing that captcha deleted, but the gist is that I agree with most of the points here. I think prog is still expanding, and I think Wobbler's latest masterpiece is a great indication as to why the database should remain open.

The other part was in support of this idea. Both of our brother/sister/whatnot websites, Jazz Archives and Metal Music Archives, do genre tags by album, and I think it's a great idea that helps increase specificity and clarity of the website. I see it being useful for ProgArchives in two cases: for bands who, despite having some incredible prog releases, have long periods in which very little or none of their material was prog (e.g. Genesis, Queen, Queensr˙che); and for bands who span various prog sub-genres. There are several examples of this last one, like King Crimson, Kayo Dot, Anathema, Oceansize, and more, but the most notable one in my mind is Porcupine Tree. I was honestly surprised when I first saw them categorised as heavy prog on the website, because their first four albums, as well as most of their releases from their early days (1991-1997) are almost undeniably psych-prog/space rock.
I use they/them pronouns (feel free to ask me about this!)

Check out my music on my bandcamp!
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14720
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 19:45
As far as i see it, the site wants to attract new members and limiting to the golden years of prog would surely be a death sentence that the captchas haven't been able to complete.

The premise of this site is to be the ULTIMATE PROG WEBSITE. That includes prog related which has certainly not been without its controversy and confusion (speaking from personal experience), but despite the site not being perfect, it pretty much fulfills its objective.

If we want to improve things, i'd be more for tagging by albums individually over bands therfore we could distinguish more easily which albums are progressive and which are not.

Bands like Metallica, Queen, Led Zeppelin should surely be here under prog related because they definately contributed to prog rock / metal by having tracks or qualities of prog despite not fully being so.

Think of these inclusions as if prog is a pure breed border collie and prog related as hybrid mixes of prog and non-prog.

Having said that, there are certainly bands that got added by mistake it seems but oh well. Don't go to those pages Wacko

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
HemispheresOfXanadu View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 28 2012
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 4339
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HemispheresOfXanadu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 19:09
Yes. Let's stagnate.

pro·gres·sive

/prəˈɡresiv/

adjective

  • 1.happening or developing gradually or in stages; proceeding step by step:"a progressive decline in popularity"synonyms:continuingcontinuousincreasinggrowingdeveloping... more
  • 2.(of a group, person, or idea) favoring or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas:"a relatively progressive governor"

noun

  • 1.a person advocating or implementing social reform or new, liberal ideas.
  • 2.a progressive tense or aspect:"the present progressive"
@ProgFollower on Twitter. Tweet me muzak.
Back to Top
progmatic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 22 2009
Location: Ohio
Status: Offline
Points: 1785
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 18:12
If it bothers you to read about new music, only click on reviews of relics from the past. There are HUNDREDS of great PROG ROCK groups (like Anekdoten and Anglagaard) that I've discovered on this site and hundreds of new prog bands that aren't even listed (CuDa/KrishNa/CuDa; Papadios, This Picture, etc.) I don't want an archive devoted to dinosaurs, I want what we have -- a site that acknowledges the masters of the past while introducing us to the wonders of the present.
PROGMATIC
Back to Top
Man With Hat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team

Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:50
Originally posted by Kotro Kotro wrote:

I've been here since 2004. In terms of adding music that isn't Progressive Rock, well, that's a barrier the database jumped a long, long time ago (10 years or more). And it was a good thing, IMO - not all progressive music is rock, and a lot of non-rock music will definitely appeal to prog-rockers. Made some very interesting discoveries along the way that I wouldn't be able to find otherwise, so genres be damned. 

Keep on adding, I say!
 

Except this is a progressive rock website not a progressive music website. And I say this as someone who likes a lot of jazz and 'out' music...but I'm ok with my favorite music not being included here. Also, just because mistakes were made in the past doesn't mean mistakes have to be made in the future. If this was something more important than an internet database that would be a pretty backwards logic to guide decisions. 
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
Back to Top
dr wu23 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: August 22 2010
Location: Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 20468
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:46
Is it a problem for the admins and mods to keep it open..? If not,  then let it be.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin
Back to Top
The.Crimson.King View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 29 2013
Location: WA
Status: Offline
Points: 4591
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The.Crimson.King Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 11:23
I don't think it makes sense to ever lock the doors and say we've already added all the prog that ever was, is or will be.  That would be like marine biologists saying they've decided that they have found all the deep sea species that could possibly be so they'll stop looking.  Whether it's some obscure 70's prog band from Vatican City that released 50 copies of a never before heard prog masterpiece, or a new band influenced by the old masters, there's always more prog out there to discover Wink

I do think though that with all the subgenres and some bands we've included that we've cast too wide a net and diluted the meaning of progressive rock...but hey...that genie's out of the bottle so there's nothing to be done but scour the PA database to find bands you like and skip the rest...


Edited by The.Crimson.King - August 05 2018 at 11:24
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16148
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 09:33
Hi,

I'm of the opinion that the definition of the genre was done by folks that were not as attuned to music and its varied history, that they invented an arbitrary set of conditions, to define what is "progressive" and then later, "prog".

The problem is that all of those conditions exist in all music and in many things that we do not consider they should not be called music. 

So, to satisfy different versions, we create sub-categories, some of which are totally off kilter and their description is the silliest of them all … like "symphonic", which is something that many "progressive" bands actually are, and is a large part of their attraction … however, HOW it is symphonic seems to be the issue … so a band with 11 keyboards is symphonic, but 7th Wave is not. And then you got problems. Ange may be progressive, but never symphonic? Weird, and specially considering they used two keyboard players to make their music even better.

Pretty soon, and I'm waiting with my ice cream cone and tutu, we will have rap and symphonic married … and then you will see, how we really screwed up all these definitions and killed the mode altogether.

The term itself, is limiting to the music, since ALL MUSIC IS PROGRESSIVE, and it has been a GIANT PROGRESSION FOR OVER 500 OR MORE YEARS … but we refuse to accept that. 
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20503
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 06:33
With the decline of the record industry due to piracy, the need for modern prog artists to go commercial or fuse prog with pop in order to gain record sales is over and done with. I can't think of any current prog groups like Spock's Beard, Marillion or Big Big Train, etc. that are doing anything along those lines. I think that the problem comes down to what we regard as prog nowadays and if this newer music should be open to PA.

Edited by SteveG - August 05 2018 at 10:14
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
Hrychu View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 03 2013
Location: poland?
Status: Offline
Points: 4138
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 06:07
HELL NO! Progarchives has always been a great way for me to find new exciting bands. Closing the database would close possibly the only door to amazing fresh music that's being made.
Bez pierdolenia sygnał zerwie, to w realia wychodź w hełmie!
Back to Top
Squonk19 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 03 2015
Location: Darlington, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 4706
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Squonk19 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 05:35
^ I agree. There is some great melodic prog rock being produced in recent years which is more complex, intriguing and inventive than stuff from the 80s where 'pop' success was being targeted by many bands.

I think the 'popular' charts are now so far removed from even pop/prog or melodic prog, that groups are just focused on making music they like playing - sometimes with a nod to the past sure, but also looking at ways of fusing together styles without barriers.

Don't think this is the time to consider 2018 as Year Zero - keep the door open....
“Living in their pools, they soon forget about the sea.”
Back to Top
Aussie-Byrd-Brother View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 12 2011
Location: Melb, Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 7951
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Aussie-Byrd-Brother Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2018 at 04:48
Originally posted by CPicard CPicard wrote:

Isn't progressive rock dying of a too important dilution into pop music?

Um, sure....if it was still the Eighties?!

But seriously, that hasn't been a problem now for...I don't know, almost thirty years now! I couldn't begin to estimate the hundreds or more of prog-related bands active since the late Eighties/early Nineties that don't operate anywhere close to pop.

And even the melodic tune based ones will usually offer plenty of inventive instrumentation to keep things interesting.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.189 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.