Ange vs Magma |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
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Whoo, 20/20. Go Ange !! (though I do love both pretty much equally)
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Mascodagama
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: December 30 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 5111 |
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Ange is pretty nice, though personally I rate Shylock and Atoll higher when it comes to mainstream French prog.
No comparison though to Magma, one of my most-loved bands and surely one of the most original in the entire prog spectrum. The fact that they initiated a sub-genre of their own, with bands across the world still bearing the Zeuhl standard and coming out with great music today, is just icing. |
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Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
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^ word.. and to more precise point of the poll. A represenative group from the nation. I think the completely unique musical nature of Magma sort of represents France's place in the prog world.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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zwordser
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 04 2008 Location: Southwest US Status: Offline Points: 1361 |
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I based my choice mainly on the live performances I've seen of both.
Ange was great, but Magma totally blew me away last time I saw them
live.
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Z
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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AND, unfairly so. ANGE has its roots in theatrical music, and you can go back to Kurt Weill and Bertold Brecht and then, use their very own interpretation of Jacques Brel. European bands were much closer to the theatrical thing in Europe than they are given credit for ... OSANNA was also doing costumes and shows way before GENESIS, but no one here will give them credit, and everyone thinks that PG is great when he is, already, 2nd generation to the whole thing. This theatrical thing never took in America, because it was the country of the "stars" and the "hits" and has remained so to the point of killing a lot of music out of San Francisco, because it was not a radio cut. ANGE, in a few videos on the net, does not look very good, mostly because the quality of things is really poor and sadly, it does not show the band at its best. But their first 5 albums rival ANY PROGRESSIVE band in quality and beauty. And, just to give you an idea of value and quality, EMILE JACOTEY was done almost 20 years before Roger Waters, and in many ways ... is a much better and more cohesive album than Roger's ... with the exception that almost everyone here likes the fame, not the music! As for a comparison between the two ... I abstain ... I love both and can not make a determination. I cried seeing MAGMA in SF and 17 years later here in PORTLAND, and if I ever saw Decamps or Ange, I probably would do the same. I only wore out about 3 or 4 copies of AU DELA DU DELIRE and it's still on my list of favorite albums, if I have to choose them!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Dellinger
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: June 18 2009 Location: Mexico Status: Offline Points: 12581 |
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^ Oh that sounds very promising.
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micky
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46828 |
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no doubt and don't forget that Genesis's theatrical schtick only came about when they realized they were boring as hell.. and were told so in no uncertain terms by their label... and after seeing Osanna knock them dead during an Italian tour.. they decided to try something that might keep their audiences awake and went the theatrical path. Zero caparison with those who merely mimic and those whose roots, musical DNA are in it.
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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CristauxFeur
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 25 2018 Location: Taizz, Yemen Status: Offline Points: 105 |
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As a french speaker I can tell you listening to prog in french is really bizarre but llistening too music in an invented language is even more bizarre so I''l go with Ange despite having an horrible sound recording in '' Le Cimetiére des Arlequins''.
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Dragged down by the stone
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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Hi, Something is fishy in this comment. So you OK with listening in a different language (English) and not OK with Kobayan or Japanese or Italian, or German or Spanish. We might as well state right now that the rules and definitions for "prog" and "progressive" can not be in any other language, and can not be theatrical and honest (ciao Peter Hammell!), and then different than what your tastes are. So much for "tastes" being the definition of great music. The world is full of different bands with different languages. ONLY HERE ON PA, do folks state things like that as if there was no world out there, and all the other bands around the world were the merde of life! Sorry, but I think the comment is not as well thought as you probably meant it to be. |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Dellinger
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^ Well, anyone can have their own preferences towards music and what elements makes it enjoyable to them. If language is one of them, so be it... I would advise to try music in other languages, but not scold them. Even though the great majority of the music I have is in english, that's mostly because of availability, I do enjoy finding music from other countries in their own local languages... I do prefer that over them singing in english, but then, that's just me, and the most important thing is still the music, not the language.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 16143 |
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I probably said this already but I don't know Ange well enough to vote. What's a good Ange album to start with ? THe AU dela delire...or whatever it's called?
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: @ wicker man Status: Offline Points: 32601 |
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I'd say that "Au-delà du délire" is a very good place to start. It's commonly Ange's most highly regarded album.
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: @ wicker man Status: Offline Points: 32601 |
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In the case of Kobaïan, it might help to think of it as more vocal sounds (instrumental) than as a language proper. If you treat the vocalisations as merely sonorous rather than as lexicon then you might enjoy the music more. I happen to enjoy it often when the voice is merely used to convey sounds in different ways rather than meaning through words -- meaning can be conveyed without vocabulary. That said, my Kobaïan is quite good. There must be some cool Klingon music out there too.;) I have come across a number of people who have difficulty enjoying any songs in languages that they don't know, but for those who are more into the instruments than the lyrics (such as myself), that's not usually such an issue. I mostly listen to instrumentals. If you don't like Magma with Kobaian, perhaps give this a try (you might appreciate the Kobaian more after hearing it by comparison): |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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I like their early albums a lot and would listen to them in order. "Caricatures" is a very nice album and shows them well, and "Le Cemetiere des Harlequins" is stronger, and shows that the band is not a fly by night, do not know what to do band ... and they ARE/WERE "harlequins" in terms of their music and subject matter for the most part. "Au Dela Du Delire" is a masterpiece, and one side is redone in the TOME VI (a fabulous live album!!!!!) really well also. "EMILE JACOTEY" I mentioned above, and recommend it a lot, although the spoken parts, which are really nice and emotional and make RW's version seem poor ... "Par Les Fils de Mondrin" is super nice as well, and these were the albums that were played on SPACE PIRATE RADIO the most from 1974 on, from this band, and later, many of the solo albums and derivatives from this band were also played. The Decamps solo albums are excellent and an actor's delight, something that is not often enjoyed by rock music folks at all! It brings out how good he made ANGE in its expression.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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The.Crimson.King
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 29 2013 Location: WA Status: Offline Points: 4591 |
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Depends on which you like better...PG era Genesis or early 70's VDGG If you're more into PG Genesis I'd go with Au Dela Du Delire. If you're more into early 70's VDGG I'd go with Caricatures or Le Cimitiere Des Arlequins.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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Might not be that simple. London had the premier of MARAT/SADE in 1964, and it went on to become a very valuable symbol that had a lot of its lines used in rock music ... however, the costume parade and insanity was now on the loose when you see a video of that original performance (incredible cast!) ... and realize that things like cabbages were being used and cut on stage like heads in the days of the French Revolution! So, there would have been an important visual link here, and it's not like no one in London goes to the theater, since both the Royal Shakespeare Company and the National Theater are considered two of the most innovative theater companies in the world. I really think that with Anthony Phillips, GENESIS was a bit more serious and "composition" defined and yes, some folks would have thought it BORING, because rock audiences were not known for sit down concerts like they did classical music in every university campus. The addition of costumes makes sense and it is possible/likely that GENESIS learned how to better interpret their music, or all of a sudden realize what they could do with it and come up with Jack the Knife, and so on, to be able to use these costumes ... but they were not new or revolutionary at all ... it was only the London reviewers and audiences that thought it was original, and totally ignored the history of theater in Europe ... somewhat similar to what many folks do here ... like the arts are not connected at all and they are. However, the harlequins theme and stories and material that ANGE was doing was more honest than the little kiddie stories that GENESIS came up with and decided that they were more important, because PA says so due to its fame. Some of this even goes back to the Grimm's fairy tales originally published in 1812 ... and some of those stories were trying to turn the news of the horrors taking place in France and other places in Europe ... and of course ... Walt Disney corrupted several of those stories even more to the point that a lot of PA's ideals are just like a Walt Disney movie! This history, is the part that Melody Maker and the other periodical would not discuss or include in their magazines, because they were an entity designed to push the sales of the albums for the record companies, and it worked to the point that even Virgin could corrupt (later) the concept and fool people and also get sales by the million. Again, to my estimation, this was almost all a media manipulation thing, and if you look at theater and film, and literature, you will find massive differences as to make you wonder ... why is music, and specially rock music so far behind and late to the party? Both ANGE and MAGMA fit into an area of creativity that is peculiar to France more than anything else. That one brought along a language for its own evolution was totally original, which was something that would make sense within a literary concept, but within the rock music, or jazz music scenes, was totally weird and off kilter, and even today, few can understand it, or appreciate it. I like to say that the French have a peculiar "I don't care" attitude in their many film satires, and this is something that you don't see in their rock music, but the attitude of how it is supposed to sound and be, is way different and you can go back to Richard Pinhas and his incredible discussions on EUROCK about his music and its political/social relevance, and you and I will go ... what? ... how? ... but it is very French and you can easily find that attitude in Jean-Luc Godard ... without the costumes ... he didn't need that to pull it off and did many times, all the way to things like ALPHAVILLE and even more later!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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maryes
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 16 2009 Location: rio de janeiro Status: Offline Points: 990 |
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ANGE !!!
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geekfreak
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 21 2013 Location: Musical Garden Status: Offline Points: 9872 |
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Magma
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Music Is Live Two people are better off than one, for they can help each other succeed. Keep Calm And Listen To The Music… < |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
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And this is the part of a lot of the folks that post here, that sometimes bothers me ... I won't vote if I have not heard some of the stuff ... but many folks here, won't bother, and will vote because they like one or the other, and not give the other a good listen. And this hurts. WHY? Because it was that great adventure in listening and music, that brought us what we call "progressive" ... so, what the guy is saying is that he didn't like YES because he was too busy playing Led Zeppelin for the 132nd time! And he only needled YES once. ohhh wait ... after the hit, he needled it 4 more times to double check his liking of Led Zep! All it shows, really, is that such a person is not really a qualified representative to vote in this particular poll. For me, I was into ANGE much farther back than most ... I had a sister in Paris, and she had that album (and Alan Stivell!!!) and I listened to it (Caricatures) and she also had Aphrodite's Child (It's 5 o'clock) ... so by the time I heard Magma, I already had 2 Ange albums and saw the homage to Jacques Brel, and in my book, it showed this band far more interesting (specially lyrically!) than GENESIS. Magma came later, for me, and it was fine, and it was the vocal material that got me there. But while I love both, my heart is still much more centered on the ANGE folks, and if you want more theatrical stuff ... check out those solo albums ... at least 2 of them are a massive wow!
Edited by moshkito - April 26 2019 at 07:38 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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