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The acceptance of shorter songs in today's prog

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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 03 2019 at 20:31
Over the past several years I've noticed a trend within certain kinds of prog(or at least certain kinds of music that gets labelled as prog)and that is for bands to make mostly shorter and less complex songs. I'm not talking about neo prog but rather what this site(progarchives)classifies as "crossover prog." Much of the music(in fact most if not all in some cases)consists of shorter songs where it seems the prog quotient is dictated more by the over all sound of the song(some might call it the atmosphere or texture)and less by the structure or complexity which may be almost nonexistent. I'm wondering if this means a loosening up in the strict definition of what constitutes prog these days. 

In the old days there seemed to be a pretty big gap between so called regular rock and progressive rock. Sure, there were art rock bands and some other bands who had some prog rockish songs at times(Roxy Music and Styx come to mind)but most of them weren't typically considered prog at the time or even part of prog. Back then you had albums like Jethro Tull's "thick as a brick" that took up a whole album and "Tales from topographic oceans" by Yes which made up four 20 minute tracks over the course of two vinyl discs. That's only four songs to listen to in over an hour. Those make up probably the most extreme examples of prog's so called "excess" from the glory days but of course there are other less extreme examples. Even Yes themselves had other side long tracks but they weren't the only ones. ELP and Pink Floyd also had side long tracks and King Crimson came close at least one time and so did Genesis(with "Supper's Ready" which just missed out on being a side long track). Back in those days shorter songs by those bands(as well as others)tended to be the exception rather than the rule. Think of "a venture" off the Yes album or "I know what I like" from Selling England by the Pound or even the old timey ELP songs that seemed to show the "fun side" of the band. The majority of these bands seemed to focus on the longer tracks though and I think that's one thing that tended to separate prog from other genres. Genres such as psychedelia(prog's older brother if you will)often included longer songs but they were the exception rather than the rule. Take the "In a Gadda Da Vida" album by Iron Butterfly for example. Although you could argue it is a proto prog album there is no mistaking it's psychedelic flavor. To illustrate my point here side two consists of the famous side long title track while all the other songs on the album(those that made up the first side)were shorter tracks. I believe that was the case with most other psychedelic bands as well. Seventies prog seems to be unique in that there seemed to be a deliberate effort to make several (if not most)of the songs as long as possible. 

All of this seemed to be done in the name of musical adventurousness and exploration and while there are still many prog bands making longer songs many of them aren't. I sometimes get the feeling that if many of these newer crossover bands(crossover seems to be the prog sub-genre with the most shorter and most accessible songs)were making this music in the 70's then they would not be labelled prog(or at least not as much). The one band on here from the old days who are labelled as crossover prog that stands out(for me at least)is the Moody Blues. I'll be honest I typically haven't really considered the Moody Blues to be a true prog band in the past simply because the vast majority of their songs were short and simple and didn't really stretch out that much like the other prog bands did. I suppose there's other reasons why the Moodies were considered prog(lyrical themes and heavy use of the mellotron for example)but maybe I'm guilty of prog snobbery in the sense that because they didn't have the complexity or song length of Yes, Genesis, King Crimson, ELP, etc I didn't think of them as prog. Even Pink Floyd seemed way more prog to me. I still liked the Moodies but I had a hard time(and to some degree still do)considering them a "full blown prog band." 

This takes me to how I feel about these modern bands. Being how this site seems to insist that these more song oriented bands are indeed prog and "crossover prog" is in fact still one hundred percent progressive rock, it has me reconsidering everything I thought I knew about prog. I now think that maybe a band doesn't have to be super complex or have the musicianship even of King Crimson or Mahavishnu Orchestra or Yes to be considered prog rock. As far as song length goes that is up to the bands discretion also and they don't have to do all(or even mostly) long songs to be prog. There can be other elements that still make it prog. This of course leads to the age old debate of "what is prog" and while there will probably be no end to that discussion among fans anytime soon at least we can all find music that is still adventurous in it's own way even if there aren't a million time changes or super long synthesizer instrumentals in them. As long as at least one person in the band has a copy of "close to the edge" or "tarkus" in their collection that just might be good enough for me. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 03 2019 at 20:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 02:02
Prog rock is very niche market oriented now; bands with longer songs know who their audience are. The shorter songs still have complexity just epics in 5 minutes (Owner for example has 5 rhythm changes and still gets dismissed as a "pop" song).

Times change. Rush were a good barometer of how to parallel the changes of prog rock.

But it was the ground zero nature of rock - rock acts who think they have invented music (thinking of Spirti's Taurus here) - and they haven't bothered to find out. But worse was punk rock where everyone (Iron Maiden especially) had to be seen in the light of punk -as if that was some sort of barometer. So rock was dumbed down and seen in the light of corporate pop culture and prog had to change - the bands made interesting songs but were over so quick the die hards hadn't even time to roll one before a new track was going.

Prog was the embodiment of actual rock music development and because the record companies had little control of how to market it (look at the mess Geffen made of Asia) it was left to their media to persuade the public. And as it's easier to digest / write about  a few songs rather than Brick or Tales people did as the corporate media instructed. Until the next fashion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 07:04
Size makes no difference. The 20 minute epic happens, but any idea that it is a requirement is pure propaganda. Complete musical works start and finish precisely when they are supposed to.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 08:06
I think that in general, most of the world has a much shorter attention span than they used to and that many of the creators of newer prog may be susceptible to that.  Of course, what really matters is the quality, not the quantity (Tapfret's comment).  I do like to have long versions, or suites if you will, however, if that is what is called for, especially because I like it when I am taken up into the music and want to see where it takes me as I listen...harder to accomplish in shorter pieces, although not always.  Sorry for the stream of consciousness there, kind of what my mind does when my ears are listening, after all.  Smile



Edited by Snicolette - January 05 2019 at 07:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meltdowner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 08:50
Well, Gentle Giant never reached the 10 minute mark Wink

But I know what you mean, if you look at most bands promoted by Prog magazine, you'll get that impression.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 10:23
Originally posted by Tapfret Tapfret wrote:

Size makes no difference. The 20 minute epic happens, but any idea that it is a requirement is pure propaganda. Complete musical works start and finish precisely when they are supposed to.
This is how it should be! And personally I'd generally rather hear a concise piece that is full of ideas than an 'epic' that's short of them. Sadly I do think 'epics for the sake of epics' is a thing in our genre. I dare say we've all listened to a few of those.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 10:55
^ I agree, Never loved the idea of making long songs just because the artist wanted to fill an album side. (TFTO comes to mind) If a piece of music develops  naturally and ends up 20 minutes that's one thing but I think some of the " epics " we have come to love could use a haircut. ( oh boy, now I'm going to get a beating! Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 14:13
Originally posted by Meltdowner Meltdowner wrote:

Well, Gentle Giant never reached the 10 minute mark Wink

But I know what you mean, if you look at most bands promoted by Prog magazine, you'll get that impression.

Especially if you go by their sampler discs which are made up mostly of shorter songs(maybe so they can fit more in).  

My whole point of this blog was that it seems to me that the definition of what is now accepted as prog has changed and I used bands who do mostly shorter songs as an example of that. There still has to be something to make it prog but I think maybe art rock is a better more accurate term and one that is not exactly new anyway. I remember reading somewhere on this site not too long ago where someone suggested that crossover prog is really progarchive's version of art rock which might be true to some degree even though some bands maybe don't fit either description perfectly. The bottom line is there may be a loosening of what is considered prog these days and I think younger people are less likely to accept the "it has to be super complex and super long" definition of prog especially when a lot of(if not most)of the bands playing the shorter songs are the younger musicians as opposed to ones who were fans in the seventies. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 04 2019 at 14:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 14:58
A few days ago I stumbled across an old thread in which the term art rock was discussed. Apparently at some point it was used almost synonymously to prog by many. Progarchives had an art rock genre, and Crossover is one of the products of splitting it up (another is Eclectic). So art rock was always at home here. (I may make a fool of myself by explaining a forum past of which I wasn't part but some others who are still around... anyway this is what I gathered from what I read.)

Progarchives have Sparks and Steely Dan and others (many others under Prog Related such as Bowie, 10cc,...) who have always done mostly shorter songs.
By the way there's no problem doing complex and even crazily complex in 2 and a half minute. With many of the more complex newer (and some older) prog bands that do longer songs I sometimes think one could split these up into more shorter songs anyway as they start somewhere and end up in a completely different place.
What can hardly be done in a short song is patient development, meditative atmosphere etc.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 15:13
Oh, and there's Residents' Commercial Album of course!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2019 at 15:17
"A venture,""more fool me,""long distance runaround"(without the fish)"I know what I like," "book of saturday" and "wonderous stories" are all songs that don't sound particularly complex to me so if there were a whole album of songs like those would it still be prog? I suppose that's what I'm wondering. I would say at least art rock which many(jury is still out for me though since I kind of go back and forth on it)consider prog anyway. I think lyou have the strict definition of prog(the one where Pink Floyd isn't prog)and then the more all encompassing "prog family" kind of prog where there's enough room for everyone. I hope that makes at least some sense. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 04 2019 at 15:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 01:26
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

"A venture,""more fool me,""long distance runaround"(without the fish)"I know what I like," "book of saturday" and "wonderous stories" are all songs that don't sound particularly complex to me so if there were a whole album of songs like those would it still be prog? I suppose that's what I'm wondering. I would say at least art rock which many(jury is still out for me though since I kind of go back and forth on it)consider prog anyway. I think lyou have the strict definition of prog(the one where Pink Floyd isn't prog)and then the more all encompassing "prog family" kind of prog where there's enough room for everyone. I hope that makes at least some sense. 


I think you have already recognised there's the spirit of the law (Floyd, Moodies) and the letter of the law (Crimson, Gentle Giant) at play here. That's maybe the least expedient way of dispensing with 'complexity' as an evaluation criteria for Prog. Supper's Ready (which I adore) is for me, a medley of short song based fragments ingeniously segued together into a pseudo 'suite' and none the poorer for that. BTW Bach's fugues and etudes are considerably shorter and considerably more complex than many of his concertos etc. There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output. ELP and The Enid are the two most notable exceptions to this I can think of from memory e.g. Karn Evil 9 obeys the sort of thematic development and exposition to which classical orchestral composers treat their melodic and harmonic materials. I think the genre definition for Crossover Prog provided by Mickey & Chus is damn near flawless. That said, I too struggle to think of the Moody Blues and Floyd as bona fide Prog but the one thing we all might agree on is that Prog is not dissimilar to Porn: no-one can define it but everyone swears they knows it when they see it Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dougie McGee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 02:16
Interesting discussion.  

Would anyone consider 1970s Barclay James Harvest to be a prog band...?   I ask because that band springs to mind given the criteria in the original post.  None of their songs were complex and many of them were quite short, neither was any of the musicianship particularly outstanding, but the quality of songwriting for the most part was superb. Their 1974 live album is still one of my favourites from that time and I would consider it to be classic prog. 

How about electronica like Tangerine dream or Jean Michel Jarre..?   Both have some superb albums tucked under their belts with long tracks being their speciality, but personally I wouldn't call them prog artists although some others might.  

Maybe as Exitthelemming states above and with complexity and track length notwithstanding there exists a largely undefinable quality which makes a band a prog band.  Personal opinion of the listener obviously plays a large part in it and one mans prog might easily be another mans classic rock or hard rock,  for example  Wishbone Ash : to my ear they're much more of a classic rock band, but they did have their proggier moments, and as with 'BJH Live' above, 'Live Dates'  is still one of my favourite albums from the era and in my own opinion one of the definitive live albums of the early 70s, but is it prog...?


Edited by Dougie McGee - January 05 2019 at 05:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 09:16
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:


I think you have already recognised there's the spirit of the law (Floyd, Moodies) and the letter of the law (Crimson, Gentle Giant) at play here. That's maybe the least expedient way of dispensing with 'complexity' as an evaluation criteria for Prog. Supper's Ready (which I adore) is for me, a medley of short song based fragments ingeniously segued together into a pseudo 'suite' and none the poorer for that. BTW Bach's fugues and etudes are considerably shorter and considerably more complex than many of his concertos etc. There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output. ELP and The Enid are the two most notable exceptions to this I can think of from memory e.g. Karn Evil 9 obeys the sort of thematic development and exposition to which classical orchestral composers treat their melodic and harmonic materials. I think the genre definition for Crossover Prog provided by Mickey & Chus is damn near flawless. That said, I too struggle to think of the Moody Blues and Floyd as bona fide Prog but the one thing we all might agree on is that Prog is not dissimilar to Porn: no-one can define it but everyone swears they knows it when they see it Wink

Good points...Since I was around in the day, I tend to think of the Moodys as "classical rock," which was what they were called at first (although originally, they were considered a "British Invasion," act) before it was termed "art rock," and about the same time, "progressive rock" (at least in the US, and, at least, as I recall), and Pink Floyd as "psychedelic rock," since that is how they pretty much began. Just how things developed from their various inceptions.

I very much agree with you on the less-common emergence of a more classical approach from such as ELP and The Enid, perhaps just from their backgrounds (at least on Emerson's part in ELP) of having been classically trained.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 11:19
[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]

What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?

[That said, I too struggle to think of the Moody Blues and Floyd as bona fide Prog but the one thing we all might agree on is that Prog is not dissimilar to Porn: no-one can define it but everyone swears they knows it when they see it]

I actually struggle more with the Moody Blues in that regard than Pink Floyd. Pink Floyd at least had long instrumental segments(sometimes pure instrumental tracks)and long songs in general. The Moodies seemed very song based most of the time and I have it in my head somewhere(as I've suggested already)that to me song based doesn't equal prog(unless maybe it's very complex and the Moodies weren't imo). I agree with the "porn" comparison. I've thought of that myself but have also seen that mentioned before by others. 

One modern band who doesn't seem to have much in the way of long songs or long instrumental segments yet have most of the other prog elements is Bent Knee. If you don't know them I highly suggest checking them out. I kind of like to think of them as Adele meets Gentle Giant. Don't let that description scare you away though. :P


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 05 2019 at 11:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 11:28
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

[There are very few Prog bands who have the compositional rigour, sophistication and reach with which to realise larger scale writing that surmounts the enduring popular song structures that underpin the majority of their output]

What about Yes, King Crimson, Gentle Giant and Jethro Tull(on thick as a brick)?
I agree with these as well...and Zappa also...It seems he was just going off of the top of his head and those two came to mind first...There are not a preponderance of them, though.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twseel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 11:38
When the focus is on complex, inventive songwriting in rock context there is no problem with making prog centered around short songs, just look at something like Tull's Songs From the Wood or a whole bunch of Avant-Prog, but an epic, vast, constantly building vibe (which can also be achieved across multiple shorter songs, of course) does add a factor of proggyness...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twseel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 11:42
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Being how this site seems to insist that these more song oriented bands are indeed prog and "crossover prog" is in fact still one hundred percent progressive rock, it has me reconsidering everything I thought I knew about prog. 
This is also a pivotal point I think; their inclusion there tells me rather that they are 'more prog than not' within our relatively broad definition, and not that they are necessarily 100% prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 13:49
I don't typically think of the Moody Blues as classical rock because only the one album "days of future passed" has an orchestra on it. There were some other orchestral moments but most of their symphonic sound was due to Mike Pinder's mellotron most of the time. Lot's of bands had mellotron such as Yes, Genesis, KC, PFM etc and I don't think of them typically as classical rock but that's all my opinion of course. Classical rock without the prog element to me would be someone like ELO and even they are considered prog by some. 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 05 2019 at 13:50
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2019 at 13:51
Originally posted by twseel twseel wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Being how this site seems to insist that these more song oriented bands are indeed prog and "crossover prog" is in fact still one hundred percent progressive rock, it has me reconsidering everything I thought I knew about prog. 
This is also a pivotal point I think; their inclusion there tells me rather that they are 'more prog than not' within our relatively broad definition, and not that they are necessarily 100% prog.

Well, if that's the case then wouldn't "prog related" or even "art rock" be a better description?
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