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Close To The Edge (Yes): Form and Substance
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richardh View Drop Down
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Points: 26151 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2019 at 17:11
I think the important thing is that there are no wasted moments. On whether it's actually symphonic or not I really wouldn't have a clue. In 1972 the leading prog bands were stretching themselves and setting the agenda. CTTE was the perfect balance of ambition and clear headed thinking by the best line up of musicians ever assembled in a rock band IMO. I reckon it deserves it's No1 slot.  
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There's lot's of songs that have that verse chorus structure. It doesn't make them pop songs. Country, vocal jazz, indie rock, alternative rock, metal, etc. Lot's of different genres(most in fact)have verse chorus song structures and yet they are not pop. But if having those structures makes it pop then pretty much anything except the most out there or deliberate prog stuff could be called pop. "Run to the hills" by Iron Maiden has a verse chorus structure(not to mention lot's of neo prog). Is that pop too?

You're right, even rock songs have the verse-chorus style, but I would like you to notice some things. First of all, I ask whether "Close to the Edge" is a real suite. Now, in my opinion, the suites are long because they are based on multiple melodies, on several themes that are developed and finally integrated with each other. That is, they have a long course due to the fact that there is a lot of musical material. For example, Supper's Ready or The Plague.
Close to the Edge instead, you can see it well in the sung part, it always has the same verses and the same chorus, that is the same melodies, although the arrangements and rhythms are very varied. Instead on Tales or Relayer there are the suites.

As for the difference between pop songs and rock songs, I would say that the essential difference lies in the melody: the pop song has an easy, catchy melody, the rock one is more based on rhythm. Another difference is the arrangement: the pop one has patinated sounds, the rock one is rougher and heavier. Pathos is another: the pop stimulates light emotions, the rock stimulates stronger emotions.


Edited by jamesbaldwin - March 17 2019 at 19:28
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Here is the thing I have noticed about Yes' longer tracks.  Many times, you see them with the various sections named.  Using CttE as an example, there are 4 parts listed as "The Solid Time of Change", "Total Mass Retain", "I Get Up, I Get Down", and "Seasons of Man".  Many times, when you listen to other bands and they have songs with parts (or movements) to them, they follow the old "Classical" approach where each part or movement is a separate section of a longer work.  Yes didn't follow that approach as much as they followed the "Impressionist" approach where the beginning and end of each movement isn't so cut and dried, but they flow into and on top of each other, so you hear sections of each movement in other movements.  This is why there are no timings on each of the movements or parts.  King Crimson was also known to do this (for example "Court of the Crimson King" of "Epitaph"). 
That is just one example of the genius of progressive music over just plain pop or rock music, the fact that progressive artists will take the basis of rock and pop and throw new and exciting ideas into the mix, or even take tried and true ideas from other genres and expand boundaries by utilizing them.  Even the subgenre of Progressive Rock that most proggers have the hardest time with, RIO and Avant Prog, utilize ideas from impressionistic composers to stretch the boundaries to almost extreme levels. 
 
The fact that CttE or any progressive music comes from the roots of pop and rock, which in turn comes from the blues and jazz, should not surprise anyone.  The difference is that the boundaries are limitless in progressive music.  It also comes from the roots of orchestral music; as examples from each of the eras:  Jethro Tull = Baroque Era.  Genesis = Classical Era.  Pink Floyd = Romantic Era.  Frank Zappa = 20th Century composers.

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I completely agree. Unlike something such as Supper's Ready, which is clearly 4-5 separate songs connected together, Close to The Edge is one body of work that stretches to 18 minutes. For that reason, compared to all the other prog epics, this one zooms by so fast. Compare it even to The Gates of Delirium, which is a couple minutes longer, but feels 6-7 minutes longer due to "Soon" really being its own song.
Patrick Schlies, a lover of music
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There's lot's of songs that have that verse chorus structure. It doesn't make them pop songs. Country, vocal jazz, indie rock, alternative rock, metal, etc. Lot's of different genres(most in fact)have verse chorus song structures and yet they are not pop. But if having those structures makes it pop then pretty much anything except the most out there or deliberate prog stuff could be called pop. "Run to the hills" by Iron Maiden has a verse chorus structure(not to mention lot's of neo prog). Is that pop too?

You're right, even rock songs have the verse-chorus style, but I would like you to notice some things. First of all, I ask whether "Close to the Edge" is a real suite. Now, in my opinion, the suites are long because they are based on multiple melodies, on several themes that are developed and finally integrated with each other. That is, they have a long course due to the fact that there is a lot of musical material. For example, Supper's Ready or The Plague.
Close to the Edge instead, you can see it well in the sung part, it always has the same verses and the same chorus, that is the same melodies, although the arrangements and rhythms are very varied. Instead on Tales or Relayer there are the suites.

As for the difference between pop songs and rock songs, I would say that the essential difference lies in the melody: the pop song has an easy, catchy melody, the rock one is more based on rhythm. Another difference is the arrangement: the pop one has patinated sounds, the rock one is rougher and heavier. Pathos is another: the pop stimulates light emotions, the rock stimulates stronger emotions.

Based on what I know about pop and what it sounds like CTTE does not sound like a pop song. Does it have a pop song structure? Maybe but if so then so does the title track to ITCOTCK then. THat is very much verse chorus with refrains that repeat and is just as repetitious as CTTE. TO me the title track to that first KC doesn't sound like pop either but it's structured in a way that could be called pop if CTTE is. CTTE has both rhythm and melody though. Also, how many pop songs have three minutes of pure instrumental almost fusion sounds before the vocals kick in? The vocals are very much verse for three or four minutes and the chorus doesn't come in until later. You can call it a pop song(Court too)if you won't but you won't ever hear me call it that. That being said I understand that pop is at the root of rock and other music forms including prog so I don't view it as an insult necessarily I just think maybe some of you guys are using the term more broadly than I am. I personally would never put Yes in the same category as Brittany Spears or Justin Timberlake(coincidence there don't read into it)or whoever is the flavor of the week that your average teenage girl listens to. Not even 80's Yes. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - March 17 2019 at 20:21
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

There's lot's of songs that have that verse chorus structure. It doesn't make them pop songs. Country, vocal jazz, indie rock, alternative rock, metal, etc. Lot's of different genres(most in fact)have verse chorus song structures and yet they are not pop. But if having those structures makes it pop then pretty much anything except the most out there or deliberate prog stuff could be called pop. "Run to the hills" by Iron Maiden has a verse chorus structure(not to mention lot's of neo prog). Is that pop too?

You're right, even rock songs have the verse-chorus style, but I would like you to notice some things. First of all, I ask whether "Close to the Edge" is a real suite. Now, in my opinion, the suites are long because they are based on multiple melodies, on several themes that are developed and finally integrated with each other. That is, they have a long course due to the fact that there is a lot of musical material. For example, Supper's Ready or The Plague.
Close to the Edge instead, you can see it well in the sung part, it always has the same verses and the same chorus, that is the same melodies, although the arrangements and rhythms are very varied. Instead on Tales or Relayer there are the suites.

As for the difference between pop songs and rock songs, I would say that the essential difference lies in the melody: the pop song has an easy, catchy melody, the rock one is more based on rhythm. Another difference is the arrangement: the pop one has patinated sounds, the rock one is rougher and heavier. Pathos is another: the pop stimulates light emotions, the rock stimulates stronger emotions.

Based on what I know about pop and what it sounds like CTTE does not sound like a pop song. Does it have a pop song structure? Maybe but if so then so does the title track to ITCOTCK then. THat is very much verse chorus with refrains that repeat and is just as repetitious as CTTE. TO me the title track to that first KC doesn't sound like pop either but it's structured in a way that could be called pop if CTTE is. CTTE has both rhythm and melody though. Also, how many pop songs have three minutes of pure instrumental almost fusion sounds before the vocals kick in? The vocals are very much verse for three or four minutes and the chorus doesn't come in until later. You can call it a pop song(Court too)if you won't but you won't ever hear me call it that. That being said I understand that pop is at the root of rock and other music forms including prog so I don't view it as an insult necessarily I just think maybe some of you guys are using the term more broadly than I am. I personally would never put Yes in the same category as Brittany Spears or Justin Timberlake(coincidence there don't read into it)or whoever is the flavor of the week that your average teenage girl listens to. Not even 80's Yes. 

I dont consider CTTE a simple pop song, similar to those of B. Spears or J. Timberlake.

I have written: "Yes have created a new song format, they take a commercial easy-listening song with a strophe-refrain-bridge-refrain structure and then they dilate it, speed it up, slow it down, accompany it with changes of rhythm and arrangement, support it with instrumental digressions and get to almost 20 minutes: and here’s to you a beat song disguised as a classical suite."

I consider CTTE a new song format. The substance, the original material is a pop (rock) song, but the form is a suite: this fact explain why the song lasts 18:30 minutes and the vocals arrive after three minutes. In fact, even TCOTCK is a melodic pop song dilated and arranged in a proggy way.
Progressive rock is a new form of song. It's a style. But the content is pop, or rock, or hard rock, or jazz-rock etc. 
Anyway, the real suites are made of many songs, or many melodies connect to each other.
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what's a strophe?
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^ The first section of an ancient Greek choral ode or of one division of it.
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ The first section of an ancient Greek choral ode or of one division of it.

Yes, verse, no strophe. Sorry for my english! Embarrassed

In Italian, if I consider the beginning of Close to the Edge:

  1. A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace,
    And rearrange your liver to the solid mental grace,
    And achieve it all with music that came quickly from afar,
    Then taste the fruit of man recorded losing all against the hour
    And assessing points to nowhere, leading every single one
    A dewdrop can exalt us like the music of the sun,
    And take away the plain in which we move,
    And choose the course you're running

The whole piece is called: "strofa"
Instead every phrase, for example: 
"A seasoned witch could call you from the depths of your disgrace" 
is called "verso", 
so "strofa" (and not "verso") is translated with "verse", not "strophe".
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I have a degree in music theory and I have no idea what "Close To The Edge" is - besides a great piece of music!!! Long live YES!!!
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^ That's OK, as long as the taxpayer is not picking up the tab for your tuition feesWink


Edited by ExittheLemming - March 19 2019 at 09:09
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Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

^ That's OK, as long as the taxpayer is not picking up the tab for your tuition feesWink

Why not? They pay for the funding of elementary and high school. Wink
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Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

...

nice..  Clap  It iis like I have said many times over the years. Yes were fans of pop music, not jazz, not classial music. Their stated goal was to merge pop music with instrumental validity.  The structure of CttE is of a standard pop song  intro/verse/chorus/verse/chorus/middle8/instrumental-break/verse/chorus/outro format.

...

There are a couple of albums where classical music is played BEFORE the concert ... I won't say that there is a connection, but I would rather associate a piece like CTTE to a classical piece than I would to a pop song ... specially as it is not showing you a half nekkid girlie or some sort of idiotic sonata format like so many pop songs do within 3 minutes. At least not in the 18 minutes although one might suggest some barbs about that from the opening and ending sounds.

I still feel that this kind of work was "the classical music" by the folks my age at that time ... that were hoping to put together something more meaningful than just a pop song. Sadly, my opinion stands that we talk of too many of these things as a pop song, not a serious composition, be it with or without some improvisation in it, as so many other groups also had it.
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I've written my complete review of "Close To The Edge", here:
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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Close to the Edge a pop song? Hah. I guess all the songs on dark side of the moon and wish you were here are pop songs too. :D Not to mention all PG era Genesis songs. If CTTE is a pop song then it doesn't sound like any pop song I've ever heard not to mention the fact it's maybe just a little bit too long to be a standard pop song.LOL

Peter Hammill regards all of his music as pop music. This includes VdGG.


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Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Hah. I guess all the songs on dark side of the moon and wish you were here are pop songs too. :D
Even in the original edition of Ummagumma you can read "File under: Pop".
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Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Close to the Edge a pop song? Hah. I guess all the songs on dark side of the moon and wish you were here are pop songs too. :D Not to mention all PG era Genesis songs. If CTTE is a pop song then it doesn't sound like any pop song I've ever heard not to mention the fact it's maybe just a little bit too long to be a standard pop song.LOL

Peter Hammill regards all of his music as pop music. This includes VdGG.

Black Sabbath and Motorhead never considered their music "heavy metal." 
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