Unpopular Opinion/Argument about the 80s |
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Odvin Draoi
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 01 2019 Location: X Status: Offline Points: 516 |
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Posted: March 23 2019 at 04:39 |
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As I observed, 80s is seen as a bleak era for prog rock. It is obvious that the digital innovation and the general atmosphere of that time conjured a different "progosphere" for prog rock. What is the cause of this drastic change, do you think? Of course there are some obvious things grounding this shift, like the digital sound innovation and a change in the general culture. Aside from these, do you have any other peculiar arguments to pin the inducements of this situation?
By my own account, it can be related to the gushing characteristics of the 80s atmosphere which might result in driving the musicians to have more fun, thus occlude their creative selves from projecting serious and sophisticated artistry. I think human psyche is more deedy in troubled times; and in the 80s people were having so much fun. I love 80s, anyway. This is not a well-grounded intellectual argument, I know. Yet sometimes things can be simple. BTW, I create this topic in order to have a better understanding and insight on the matter. So I'll be glad to be enlightened by your convictions, and accept to be falsified if I see better arguments. Thanks. Edited by Odvin Draoi - March 23 2019 at 05:20 |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
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Anongst all the decades-long obsession with Prog and Metal, I do enjoy many 80’s things that made their mark at the time, regardless of production qualities. They were state-of-the-art at the time, and remain revolutionary to this day. My pick from, at least 80’s Mainstream’ would be Sade ( such a soulful, musicianly bunch, and Kajagoogoo (not only for Nick Beggs’ mastery of the bass) and Japan. And Buggles. The 80’s had their musical revolutions in place, even if they haven’t aged that well.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
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The 80s had a few letdowns. The most horrible thing about the 80s is the invention of the drum machine. A lot of artists experimented with this device in the 80s (e. g. Peter Hammill, Mother Gong, Amon Düül 2), but the results were never convincing. A machine can not replace a human drummer.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2005 Location: Olympus Mons Status: Offline Points: 15916 |
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^ f**k the synthetic drums...... (put bassists out of a job).
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Mascodagama
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A poor period for mainstream “prog”, but a great one for avant rock, post-punk, art pop and metal.
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Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
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MortSahlFan
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the 80s was the beginning of the end for music (and movies).
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https://www.youtube.com/c/LoyalOpposition
https://www.scribd.com/document/382737647/MortSahlFan-Song-List |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16145 |
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Hi,
Welcome, btw. I am of the opinion that "progressive" or "prog" anything never died. Music, in the history of mankind has never died, and always managed to make itself seen and heard. The real fact of the matter is that most of us in the 80's stopped "smoking" so much dope, and had to use the money for the house and the kids! IF that is a reason for the music to die out, we're in sad shape ... were we listening at all? Did we really care about the music? I kinda doubt it ... folks like Peter Hammill and VdGG became even better and stronger during that time ... but we didn't see it, or acknowledged it, because they did not have a number 1 album like CTTE. Bill Bruford in his book, has an interesting thought, that some of this stuff started dieing out because as time went by it was not as good or as honest and it was centered a lot more on being a hit, and a part of the "list" everything, than they were into their "art" ... and as such, the stuff became more pop oriented, which gives our listings a look that the bands around are not as good as the ones in the early 70's, for example. The only concern I have is that Bill Bruford did not mention or might not have known enough about the rest of the European scene, to see that there was a lot more music out there and they did not "die out" because many of these bands were into their "art" a lot more than they were into the sales, which has been the biggest problem for the definition of what is "progressive" or "prog rock" ... basically, if it didn't sell, it's a prairie patty for you to step on! History, for most progressive music of any kind, has been a blessing for a lot of bands that were, supposedly not as good, or fewer people heard them ... and all of a sudden there is a much wider and informative bunch of folks that have heard a lot more continentals than simply the British. This, in many ways, has helped progressive music tremendously, and if we get off the "pop music syndromme" it will probably get even better ... Bill Bruford also mentions that a lot of the progressive music got its start with people that were much more in tune with classical and church music ... and it's really hard to not look at those things, and then say ... that it's pop music ... these folks were not interested in a pop song about the blue polka dot bikinis! ... although we have a tendency to continuously go back to that pop music mentality because the lyrics in some of these works are eccentric and we don't know how to study and learn them better to see how the artist/musician put it together. There are a variety of reasons ... for example, in America, there are even more reasons, because it is sort of like 3 or 4 countries with different music. "Progressive" and "Prog" did not sell as well as it did in the American NorthEast and Midwest ... and it's been said that it is because of the WASP folks, where as in Louisiana, they have their own music, and blues, and they couldn't careless about anything else ... and of course, we could also say that the West Coast was so deep fried that they could not even think or get a whiff of what all this music was about ... for them it was either fan-boys or fan-girls and a week later ... all hair and drugs ... music? You're kidding me! I believe that people that think the era of music died are the same ones that gave creedence to something like the punk scene ... which is the best well known media brainwash, of all the musics out there ... very little of it had meaning that you would care about past getting stoned and or drunk! I believe that a lot of it ... has to do with your life. I have NEVER stopped listening, and it wasn't just "progressive" ... I still had Ravi Shankar, Yehudi menuhin, Tibetan Bells, Paul Horn, Maria Betania, Carlos Jobim, and many others ... something that most folks my age used to go ... wtf man ... you don't like Jethro Tull? It wasn't "like" ... it was that I had heard many more things, and many of them were better than the pop songs that Ian liked to do so he could show off his cleverness with words ... that was very tiring for me ... if that's what you like, there is far better literature out there ... so why bother with JT? Music has never died in the human history ... unless a religion or government tried to kill it ... but now we believe anything that social media says ... and we're afraid to "not like" what everyone else seems to like ... we've lost our soul ... and if that happens, "progressive" and "prog rock" will indeed die. It's about you and I a lot more than we give ourselves credit for ... can you list 5 bands from the 80's (strictly) ... and it should be a sign that you did not listen to many of them ... !!!!!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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2dogs
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 03 2011 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 705 |
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Drum machines are best used to make their own mechanical sounds as in Godflesh, Sisters of Mercy, Arthur Brown's Kingdom Come .
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"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
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Arthur Brown needs real drums.
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Manuel
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I think the hippy movement helped the growth of progressive music because a lot of people loved to trip to the music, meaning they would sit and listen. The 80s generation, as the vast majority of generations, prefers dancing music, and prog is not necessarily about that (try dancing to Close to the Edge or Thick as a Brick for example), so listening to music with complex arrangements, long pieces with lots of instrumental parts, odd meters, etc, is not appealing for people who want to dance, since al you need is a catchy tune and a nice, danceable beat.
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BaldFriede
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 02 2005 Location: Germany Status: Offline Points: 10261 |
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I actually have danced to "Close to the Edge". And to a lot of other prog tracks, even to stuff like "Quasarsphere" from Manuel Göttsching's "Inventions for Electric Guitar". One of my favorite dancing tracks is "Dance on a Volcano" from "A Trick of the Tail". I am all over the floor when dancing to this track, and I mean it. There is a moment during the final instrumental section where I run from one corner of the room to the other as part of my dance, and during another part of the track I hop all around the room on an imaginary cross.
Edited by BaldFriede - March 23 2019 at 09:17 |
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BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue. |
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Slartibartfast
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I utterly disagree with notion. It was bleak for many of the better know artists went commercial. Some to borrow a phrase from Dune - They tried and failed? They tried and died like Gentle Giant. There was plenty of good prog happening but you really had to go beyond the usual suspects. Here's what you apparently missed out on from my collection -
Edited by Slartibartfast - March 23 2019 at 12:28 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Odvin Draoi
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 01 2019 Location: X Status: Offline Points: 516 |
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I didn't miss a plenty of the ones you put here. Plus I made it obvious that the "notion" is something out of my observations. I agree with it to an extent, but the idea is not really and solely mine.
I really do love the 80s europop and similar synth and electronic sound driven stuff, but generally I don't see 80s stuff as sophisticated as 70s, in prog. For example there are a bunch of Kansas songs that I like from the 80s, yet I don't see them in the same calibre of their earlier stuff in artistry. Either for commercial reasons, or a choice to adapt to the era's sound; they didn't retain their uniqueness. I don't complain, as I like 80s characteristics and soul. Additionally, I opened this thread to see some controversial views as well. So far, so good I suppose. Edited by Odvin Draoi - March 23 2019 at 12:45 |
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2dogs
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I was into other types of music in the 80s. I enjoyed and continued to discover a number of 70s prog albums but they felt like historical works and it never occurred to me the genre was still alive.
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"There is nothing new except what has been forgotten" - Marie Antoinette
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verslibre
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Great list, Slart! I lived the '80s and if you were into electronic music, especially what Tangerine Dream, Klaus Schulze, Mark Shreeve, Emerald Web, Jan Hammer, Steve Roach, Robert Schroeder, Jean-Michel Jarre, Kit Watkins, Vangelis and even Kitaro were doing, you were a lush in a brewery! Entire labels 14 — Audion, Private Music, Lifestyle, Fortuna, Innovative Communication — popped up that specialized in EM. Prog? How about Rush. Twelfth Night. IQ. Djam Karet. Ozric Tentacles. Dregs. Kansas. King Crimson's '80s trilogy flat-out kicks ass! And as I already said, I like Emerson, Lake & Powell (but not 3, lol). Goblin and Claudio Simonetti produced no less than Contamination, Tenebre, Notturno, Phenomena, La Chiesa (Keith Emerson also recorded the titular theme), and Opera. Color me heretical, maybe, but I love what Hawkwind did, too: Choose Your Masques, Chronicle of the Black Sword, The Xenon Codex. Lots to love in the '80s.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5091 |
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I think there were two major factors of influence, the sociological and the technological.
Classic Prog was already dead for a couple of years. The initial wave of Punk already declining and morphing into more sophisticated music like The Police or Ska. The music industry wanted dance music. And there came the New Wave, which dominated much of the commercial scene and influenced even artists who had been Proggers. Then there was the technological revolution of digital technology. Digital synths, drum machines, electronic drums, guitar synths... As with every newborn technology the beginnings were rather poor in terms of performance. Even a super-expensive digital synth-sampler like the Fairlight had ridiculously low sample rates and resolution and could only manage samples of little more than one second duration. The sounds of the early digital synths and drum machines were plastic and horrible, and they influenced the general sound of 80's music. But there was still good Prog being made, and many competent musicians found also a second home making New Age music, of which there was truly horrible music but also much really good music.
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Online Points: 16143 |
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Add neo prog to the list too if that's your thing. I'm not sure if "neo prog" counts as mainstream or not though. Other than Marillion it was pretty underground in the US(if it was known at all).
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16145 |
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I'm not sure that is a good call, since he is well known to be simply doing word and feeling poems, and a musician behind him, specially a drummer, would have a hard time keeping up with him, and more than likely would always be late and behind with accents on various details and words. In this situation, just like a lot of his stuff with Klaus Schulze, it is much better than something be already there behind him, so he can come to it, and not feel lost and not have to feel like he needs to do/say something special in this very moment for the benefit of the drummer ... it is all about the "art" and the "feeling" of the whole thing ... and a different musician, specially a drummer, is not likely to make it better. But honestly, I can not really mention anyone else that this makes sense, though ... most every one else are too tied to the rock/pop sound of things, and sadly, this is where the quality of the work, and its individuality suffers ... best not have a drummer, than have one that can only do fills, and nothing else ... and Mani is getting a bit too old to help anyone!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16145 |
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Are you kidding me? May I suggest a diet of less pop music and more way out there stuff? There were people dancing to ZpZ as much as there were people dancing to RtF, as there were people dancing to TD ... something that almost all of their videos do not show at all ... at least through the 80's here in Portland ... there were people dancing in the isles at the Schnitzler Hall ... the so-called "hippy movement" helped the dancing thing, but I seriously doubt that it was dancing that hurt ... no one that I knew were into PF or ELP or YES, gave a darn about SATURDAY NIGHT FEVER ... however, if they were they wouldn't tell you, but you could find them in the local dance spots with their close friends. Dancing or not, is probably one of the least important factor ... if you had seen any of the DANCE experiments in the 60's and 70's by some of the biggest names ever, you would have heard so much different and far out music, that no one thought anything was beyond a step or two ... on the other hand, it was rock fans that thought that ballerinas were ugly and not sexy in Paris that killed a ballet by a historical ballet figure trying to give PF a different light ... and it was done BEFORE the mass media BS a few months later. Just remember that even Bob Fosse, now a historical figure in dance ... was originally thought as a sex and suggestive on the stage with very little bance value ... and look at where things are today! Dancing is a body expression, and for any of us to think that this particular expression has no "progressive" thoughts or notions of any kind is weird ... where would this leave folks like Kate Bush ... where you might say it's not dance-able, and then you look at the videos and such ... and ... oh my Gawd ... can she dance! Why would she NOT dance? Or anyone else? Not all music is about going to the club to pick up a girl or a guy and then have a nite of it ... and sometimes we confuse "dance" with it, and it is a terrible thing to do ... it takes the humanity out of dancing and simply enjoying oneself on any stage of life. The worst being, of course, us oldies ... dance? what's that?
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16145 |
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There were some good things, but it was, for the most part ... a commercial/advertising thing, that many folks took advantage of. In fact, two of the biggest rip offs I have seen in my life were by well to do "new age" folks that literally robbed the person/s they sold to, and then skipped the country, so to speak! All of a sudden "new age" died in 5 minutes! The hipness was gone. Into this same group I had played for some of them Vangelis, from the 1st album (Earth), and Ash Ra Temple (New Age of Earth), and those folks dismissed the idea that it was New Age because it had no suggestive naked women on the cover dressed as some kind of "angel" or something else, and neither was it using the fancy words that "designated" it all as "new age". At the time, I was working with an artist that drew "angels" (quite powerful energy drawings), and that stuff was too religious for them, while also being way too artistic for them ... because it didn't look like everything else ... fake old pictures of angels, and the holistic images on the cover of a cassette or CD. But there were some very good folks doing music ... just not sure that they even got any credit for anything else they did and probably had to go back to their day job afterwards due to one of the worst commercial designs for sales of anything ... not to mention that here, one such "church" got busted, another was accused of "sexual this and that" ... and ... you know ... the usual! Some things never change, and as one comedian said in a throw away line ... where there is money there is evil!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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