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Whamdaddy View Drop Down
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    Posted: April 10 2019 at 07:34
New to the Prog Archives universe and am noticing that "prog" has a very broad scope here, so was wondering as Black Sabbath is my favorite band would you guys consider their album Sabatage to be prog. I think it falls under the parameters on here anyway. 
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I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.

Prog? Can you elaborate a bit more on why you think so, or why more so than SBS?

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Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.

Prog? Can you elaborate a bit more on why you think so, or why more so than SBS?

I would say that sabotage starts out as a thrash album, Hole in the sky is one of there harder edge songs for sure, but the rest of the album, including the great "The Writ" has many prog elements including layering, reverb many different changes in each song, lyrics, and studio tricks along with a very trippy production that makes it seem to me anyway as very prog leaning. I see SBS as a more straightforward hard rock album IMO. Maybe lyrically SBS has some prog in it but I see that album as a precursor to what was happening later in the decade with VH and NWOBHM
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Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.


First thrash album? No, but maybe Symptom of the Universe could be proto-thrash. 
(but so is Queen's Stone Cold Crazy LOL)
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Whamdaddy View Drop Down
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not sure if I am into the whole proto thing for any genre
it either is or isn't, symptom and Hole are not thrash but harder metal, inspiring thrash musicians maybe, but pigeon holing BS into any tight genre is useless, probably, but prog does not seem to be a tight genre, very inclusive
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Originally posted by Whamdaddy Whamdaddy wrote:

Originally posted by Finnforest Finnforest wrote:

I just read (though I can't recall where) someone who said Sabotage is the first Thrash metal album in his opinion. I don't know that much about metal, but I like thrash bands, so I'll be thinking about this the next time I play it.

Prog? Can you elaborate a bit more on why you think so, or why more so than SBS?

I would say that sabotage starts out as a thrash album, Hole in the sky is one of there harder edge songs for sure, but the rest of the album, including the great "The Writ" has many prog elements including layering, reverb many different changes in each song, lyrics, and studio tricks along with a very trippy production that makes it seem to me anyway as very prog leaning. I see SBS as a more straightforward hard rock album IMO. Maybe lyrically SBS has some prog in it but I see that album as a precursor to what was happening later in the decade with VH and NWOBHM


Interesting. Now I want to spin it again. It's been a while, so thanks for the reminder.Smile

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It gets dismissed for its cover but IMO Technical Ecstacy is the worst of Ozzy period.
Sabotage is a great album and there could have been a great compilation of Proggy Black Sabbath tracks back in the day.
"The Writ" from this album and "Spiral Architect" from Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Even "Megalomania" from Sabotage.
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Originally posted by AZF AZF wrote:

It gets dismissed for its cover but IMO Technical Ecstacy is the worst of Ozzy period.
Sabotage is a great album and there could have been a great compilation of Proggy Black Sabbath tracks back in the day.
"The Writ" from this album and "Spiral Architect" from Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. Even "Megalomania" from Sabotage.

I've never heard anyone dissing or dismissing the album because of the cover (but then again BS album covers are not great or good, attractive, interesting, anyway). 

It's also quite loved and appreciated, I've rarely seen or heard complaining (on the music that is) either.  
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I actually love the cover, total period piece for the 70's, Sabbath covers are very Sabbath: black, dark, chauvinistic, to the point, except of course TE which every thing about that album is terrible

I think every album has at least one sort of prog offering
BS-Behind the wall of sleep/sleeping village
Paranoid-War Pigs/ hand of doom
MOR-Into the void (heard live by the all original members at "99" ozzfest)
Vol. 4 -Side 2
SBS, Spiral architect
Sabotage- Writ/megalomania
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Originally posted by Whamdaddy Whamdaddy wrote:

I actually love the cover, total period piece for the 70's, Sabbath covers are very Sabbath: black, dark, chauvinistic, to the point, except of course TE which every thing about that album is terrible
 

Disagree. Another great Sabbath album.

As usual, Geezer is in fine form.
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Sabbath * Funk = All Moving Parts !!
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Whamdaddy Whamdaddy wrote:

I actually love the cover, total period piece for the 70's, Sabbath covers are very Sabbath: black, dark, chauvinistic, to the point, except of course TE which every thing about that album is terrible
 

Disagree. Another great Sabbath album.

As usual, Geezer is in fine form.

 

Yep.  There's some good songs on TE.  Perhaps it's uneven album.  
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Hi,

For my tastes, and I have several BS albums, the band is not progressive. Yes, it does have bits and pieces of material here and there that makes it interesting, but all in all, it is NOT a progressive band, and it's character in concert pretty much made it clear ... this was a rock band, loud and louder and more often than not it seemed like it was there to support Ozzy, although the show I saw at the Hollywood Paladium, he was so far out of it, that you might as well be supporting the lights and the technicians ... Ozzy sounded horrible and sang even worse!

The worst progressive, or prog, concert I have ever seen, was NEVER EVER that bad, and completely out of character with the material on hand, although I'm pretty sure that someone will immediately mention one or two of them ... but just the thought of KC screwing up on stage and not being good ... is scary ... very scary, but as many live albums and shows are around, you can't really say it is that bad.

In the days of the bootlegs, the BS ones, were not in the top 10 at all ... more like the bottom 10 because the band was not very well known for doing a great concert at all!
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Probably deserves some prize for most misleading thread title!

Anyway my two cents. Digressing slightly , but no one talks about Bill Ward although he was probably one of the greatest drummers of the seventies and very underrated much like Brian Downey was in Thin Lizzy. Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. Out of the industrial grind of Birmingham they created something uniquely their own and that is basically what being 'progressive' is imo.
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There's definitely some prog in Black Sabbath's music and "sabotage" is certainly no exception. Let's not forget that a certain caped crusader appeared on their previous album. Tongue
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Sabbath are a heavy metal band. Here and there are some progressive moments, but that doesn't earn them a prog badge, not even proto prog metal IMO.

They are however a fantastic band, and Sabotage, for me, is their best album. I love every twisted and demented minute of it. Someone mentioned the often maligned Technical Ecstasy. I don't think it's that bad. A bit uneven maybe, but I enjoy it more than Never Say Die.

I'm going to put my balls on the line here, and say I would actually rather listen to both Dio fronted albums than any of the Ozzy albums, not including Sabotage...
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Probably deserves some prize for most misleading thread title!

Anyway my two cents. Digressing slightly , but no one talks about Bill Ward although he was probably one of the greatest drummers of the seventies and very underrated much like Brian Downey was in Thin Lizzy. Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. Out of the industrial grind of Birmingham they created something uniquely their own and that is basically what being 'progressive' is imo.
 

Great post, Richard. Big fan of Ward and Downey. 
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Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I'm going to put my balls on the line here, and say I would actually rather listen to both Dio fronted albums than any of the Ozzy albums, not including Sabotage...
 

Heaven and Hell, Mob Rules and Dehumanizer are three of my favorite Sabbath albums. Dio's my favorite vocalist, so that also makes him my favorite Sabbath vocalist. Wink
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Most of their albums have elements of Prog but just about and Sabbath Bloody Sabbath I think is probably the Proggiest , post Ozzy albums not as much so. 
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I started college in Sept of '69....I recall buying Zep, Sabbath, Uriah Heep, etc...don't recall thinking of any of them as prog....the only album I had a little later  ..Spring of '70 ...was ITCOTCK....that seemed far different from the other things I owned...though even then I don't recall the term prog being used often.
I never considered my Moody Blues, Traffic,  or Procol Harum lp's as prog either. 

I'm getting old...I just realized the reference was to Sabotage,,, and not the first Sabbath lp....Embarrassed
but at any rate I have never thought of Sabbath as 'proggy'...though there are songs here and there that might fit the bill.


Edited by dr wu23 - May 16 2019 at 11:25
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