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BS Sabotage Prog?

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Blacksword View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Blacksword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2019 at 03:57
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Probably deserves some prize for most misleading thread title!

Anyway my two cents. Digressing slightly , but no one talks about Bill Ward although he was probably one of the greatest drummers of the seventies and very underrated much like Brian Downey was in Thin Lizzy. Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. Out of the industrial grind of Birmingham they created something uniquely their own and that is basically what being 'progressive' is imo.


I agree re; Ward & Downey. Great drummers, who learned to appreciate more as I got older.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote miamiscot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2019 at 08:55
Prog and Metal have always been siblings...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2019 at 21:42
Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog and Metal have always been siblings...
Yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2019 at 07:36
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

Originally posted by miamiscot miamiscot wrote:

Prog and Metal have always been siblings...
Yes.

I don't think so ... however, when compared to the "metal" styled bands from the 70's, there was an obvious attempt in the past 20 plus years for many very good musicians to put something together with "metal", that involved some serious musicianship ... which, some would consider a threat to "progressive" or even "prog", and this is where the definitions are fan driven and have nothing to do with the music at all ... 

In my book, this is where a website like ours has a way to blend and distort (ohhh what we would do without all that distortion in a band!) a lot of music, to the point of it all be completely meaningless, and worst of all, no one gives a cahoot about its definition, except that kid that just posted he was looking for some bs prog of some sort, specially for a band, whose greatest honor was being loud and obnoxious on the stage! Not that they did not do one or two good things, but that's like saying the Rolling Stones or Bob Dylan, didn't either!

I don't think BS belongs in a "progressive", or "prog" discussion, and think that its inclusion in a place like that is more likely to break apart the definitions of the genre, that were intended for the music ... not the radio and song folks that did not have the talent to write something more concise. BB was more about the RIFF and its loudness than it was about a whole lot more, including its spiritual, or manic concepts.

It was all more about advertising and attention, than it was about the music! Look at the cover, for goon's sakes ... clever and cool ... a lot more than what the music is all about! Ohh, excuse me ... one song fits a "prog" this or that, except in those days, that description DID NOT EXIST!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tom Ozric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2019 at 14:10
^ Well, dividing ‘genres’ is a moot thing these days, but we tend to define certain bands with all these labels so we can relate a certain sound and style of one band with another.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 29 2019 at 17:18
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 
Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. 
 

WOW .... the first time I hear a statement like that in a 'Prog' community.  Yours really were ....BIG points!
You know, when early 70's rock bands are concerned, there are so many people on these communities whose favourites skillfully used BLUES as their foremost influence on their music. And that's okay, but hell those fans inexorably miss the point when talking about Sabbath music, not to say others who pigeonhole BS as being "Heavy Metal" or "loud" or whatever else, these people really don't get what they came for in the early 70's music scene.....

And Led Zeppelin is a perfect case in point, their undoubtedly strong and exciting beat have Bonham's powerful and prominent drumming as one essential and invariably great feature of theirs. However, there are many instances where he would never fit in Sabbath's music. And I bet you know why, Ward is symply peerless in terms of what he's able to lock into and nail, and what NOT to play, damn perfectly fitting into Sabbath's dynamics and unique musical vocabulary. 
.



Edited by Tillerman88 - May 29 2019 at 17:20
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2019 at 00:18
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 
Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. 
 

WOW .... the first time I hear a statement like that in a 'Prog' community.  Yours really were ....BIG points!
You know, when early 70's rock bands are concerned, there are so many people on these communities whose favourites skillfully used BLUES as their foremost influence on their music. And that's okay, but hell those fans inexorably miss the point when talking about Sabbath music, not to say others who pigeonhole BS as being "Heavy Metal" or "loud" or whatever else, these people really don't get what they came for in the early 70's music scene.....

And Led Zeppelin is a perfect case in point, their undoubtedly strong and exciting beat have Bonham's powerful and prominent drumming as one essential and invariably great feature of theirs. However, there are many instances where he would never fit in Sabbath's music. And I bet you know why, Ward is symply peerless in terms of what he's able to lock into and nail, and what NOT to play, damn perfectly fitting into Sabbath's dynamics and unique musical vocabulary. 
.

 

yes and also one of the reasons I have an issue with Dark Side of The Moon - that blues thing that so many musicians fall back on when it suits them. When I got into prog into the seventies , the keyboard dominated sound really made an impact with me. I didn't want to hear yet another heavy rock band doing a blues riff. I have also mentioned in other discussions how important I believe Iron Maiden were ( and still are). It's all about creating something that stands out at the end of day. For this reason I just can't get on board with Moshkito's point about 'loudness'. I mean ELP were often considered to be 'heavy metal' because they were as loud as any metal band and enjoyed being so!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2019 at 03:20
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

 
Sabbath had many obvious 'proggy' moments and always felt more to me like a prog band than many of their contemporaries such as Led Zep and Deep Purple. 
 

WOW .... the first time I hear a statement like that in a 'Prog' community.  Yours really were ....BIG points!
You know, when early 70's rock bands are concerned, there are so many people on these communities whose favourites skillfully used BLUES as their foremost influence on their music. And that's okay, but hell those fans inexorably miss the point when talking about Sabbath music, not to say others who pigeonhole BS as being "Heavy Metal" or "loud" or whatever else, these people really don't get what they came for in the early 70's music scene.....

And Led Zeppelin is a perfect case in point, their undoubtedly strong and exciting beat have Bonham's powerful and prominent drumming as one essential and invariably great feature of theirs. However, there are many instances where he would never fit in Sabbath's music. And I bet you know why, Ward is symply peerless in terms of what he's able to lock into and nail, and what NOT to play, damn perfectly fitting into Sabbath's dynamics and unique musical vocabulary. 
.

 

yes and also one of the reasons I have an issue with Dark Side of The Moon - that blues thing that so many musicians fall back on when it suits them. When I got into prog into the seventies , the keyboard dominated sound really made an impact with me. I didn't want to hear yet another heavy rock band doing a blues riff. I have also mentioned in other discussions how important I believe Iron Maiden were ( and still are). It's all about creating something that stands out at the end of day. For this reason I just can't get on board with Moshkito's point about 'loudness'. I mean ELP were often considered to be 'heavy metal' because they were as loud as any metal band and enjoyed being so!
 
Yea absolutely!.. and completely agree with you again.

And in fairness , I admittedly don't read half of people's messages on these boards hahah ... would have to correct that, but the previous post of yours in fact made me just rewind it all and refresh my memory concerning Bill Ward's astonishing musicianship, and that is always an absolute delight...
 .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2019 at 07:19
Originally posted by Tom Ozric Tom Ozric wrote:

^ Well, dividing ‘genres’ is a moot thing these days, but we tend to define certain bands with all these labels so we can relate a certain sound and style of one band with another.

I'm not sure about that ... I think that is a temporary thing until folks get tired of it, and the "sound" does not fit anything anymore.

You and I, and anybody here, do not go to listen to Beethoven or Tchaikovsky, because they are "romantic", and belong to that period. We go listen to it, for something different and because it is nice and well written and a very enjoyable listen!

The same for rock music and these slight definitions ... they will long be forgotten, because the majority of folks, or fans, do not study music, or take an easy (and fun!!!!) course on the history of music! And, if we had to find a "reason" it would be that they do not "sound" like the stuff these same folks like!

I don't listen to Bach, Handel or Albinoni because they are "baroque" ... I listen to them in the same vein that I can listen to a jazz quartet do their version of "chamber music", which is just about the same thing ... but because one is amplified and the other sounds like total poop, none of these folks will listen to it, and make a fair evaluation of the history of music ... so their comment and enjoyment makes a lot more sense than simple ... Preference. Same thing for Mozart ... he fits in a category that kinda defies categories, and just about has one for himself, and the list of other composers at the time? You and I probably can't name them in one finger and Salieri doesn't count as a true composer! He was a note taker, and more than likely stole a lot of music!

But, yeah, BS has some "proggy moments" ... so does almost every band that we mention here. But a band like BS, will get a better understanding and appreciation, than someone like The Edgar Broughton Band, that was far more progressive, experimental, and in lyrics ... totally with it ... though we think that BS's lyrics are more valuable or important because we have the album, and most folks here won't even sit through OORA or anything else to realize what is there in the first place ... and wow ... look at the time it was done!

BS, rode the coat tails of American FM radio ... plain and simple. In LA, NY, and SF, the FM stations loved playing these things, and loud ... and it got folks to enjoy them (and I do!!!!) ... but when setup next to the real names in PROGRESSIVE MUSIC, I'm sorry ... I don't think that we should even be having that discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2019 at 04:30
errmm ... well, not surprising to me how people that specialises in academic music discussion so frequently miss the point .... and don't have a clue of what new and worth while is being brought to the table by great artists, and this unfortunately happens not only today but has happened along the whole music history as well......
.


Edited by Tillerman88 - June 01 2019 at 04:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 02 2019 at 19:42
Originally posted by Tillerman88 Tillerman88 wrote:

errmm ... well, not surprising to me how people that specialises in academic music discussion so frequently miss the point .... and don't have a clue of what new and worth while is being brought to the table by great artists, and this unfortunately happens not only today but has happened along the whole music history as well......
.

Right!

Just like saying that everything that came before was crap!

It wasn't!

And for your record, I have been at this "progressive" thing since 1967/1968 or 1969 ... and while I do not consider myself one of the exponents of the music, I was there with all of them, and was playing YES, and ELP, when people were going ... what?

I don't specialize in classical music ... but your point is like saying that all of classical music is crap, and in that vein, I'm afraid you are not correct at all, and your view is quite uneducated ... not that it matters since your point of view comes from "fame", and "preference" and has nothing to do with MUSIC and its history at all! Even rock music!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2019 at 00:18
Yes and ELP were not the beginning of course. Rubber Soul kicked a hell of a lot of the good stuff off and Zappa was of course massively important in America. Yes and ELP helped to popularise the genre (Tarkus was No 1 in the UK album charts) so I don't think that when these bands were in their pomp it was that much of secret. I don't want to revisit the whole what is prog question that just goes round and round but without doubt it was most represented by ELP, Yes, Genesis ,Gentle Giant , VDGG , Camel and PFM plus Tull. Any bands including Sabbath that were not like those bands were not really considered prog. Certainly not Can or Led Zep or 10CC. Even Pink Floyd were actually not categorised as prog in the seventies. Even that has been a revisionist thing really because they have to be put somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tillerman88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 03 2019 at 03:22
^^ Some English comprehension notes are always good... isn't it?

academic music discussion = discussion about academic music (which I alluded as being made by reviewers and critics.)

And "educated" criticisms on music (like those of yours) happen not only today but has happened along the whole music history.

Now please, do me a favor, do NOT direct your BS to me one more time. Thanks
.




Edited by Tillerman88 - June 03 2019 at 03:46
The overwhelming amount of information on a daily basis restrains people from rewinding the news record archives to refresh their memories...
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