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Prog Folk....? Is there a thread..?

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dr wu23 View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 20 2019 at 10:33
is there a dedicated prog folk thread talking about all things prog folk...bands, artists, styles, etc..?
?
The reason I ask is that I am currently listening to 'The Albion Band' and I notice they are not on PA.
That surprises me since they fit nicely into the same style as Fairport, Steeleye Span ,and related bands.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 20 2019 at 11:01
There are a number of topics about Folk, and there might be one in the public fora dedicated to Prog Folk (I've rather wanted to do one specifically on Progressive Folk). The Prog Folk team have a specific one for evaluation, but it's in a Collab zone.

if you want to recommend a band for PA inclusion, then one should use the Suggest New Bands forum: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=1 See THIS.

For general discussion purposes about Prog Folk, then a new topic on all things Progressive Folk would we nice (maybe to be done in General Music Discussions since the Prog fora are intended for discussion about music already included in the Prog Archives database).

That said, The Albion Band was suggested for Prog Folk, the folkies thought it better for prog related and it was rejected for Prog Related.

See: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=66536
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 12:08
Thanks for the heads up.....I looked at that old Albion Band thread...and it looks like they were rejected for prog folk and prog related.....which to me is weird because neither Fairport nor Steeleye Span are anymore proggy to me. They have  more rock elements than Albion Band but not really anymore 'proggy'. It just goes to show how people differ on these things and why imho the board should have open voting on group categories and inclusions.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 13:08
I don't really know the history of the Fairport Convention or Steeleye Span additions to Prog Related, but it may be that those bands were considered to be more historically significant when it comes to Folk Rock. It may be that a stronger case was made for those additions (the argument and level of support can be important as well as the music) and it may be that Prog Related was considered more exclusive by the time The Albion Band was suggested for Prog Related. Hugues called it more of a related-to-Prog Related band. I'm not that familiar with The Albion Band. Not that it will be re-evaluated, but which album by the The Albion Band would you consider most progressive, and particular tracks?

With Fairport Convention, I find Liege and Lief a good fit for Prog Related. I find that quite progressive in part, and I think the band has some psychedelic qualities, such as on the debut and What We Did on Our Holidays, that edge it closer to Prog Folk bands such as Pentangle (I hear similarities between those two bands and personally consider The Pentangle to be one of the most important bands in prog Folk). And Sandy Denny worked with the Strawbs which gives it some more prog relation.

As for Steeleye Span, I would say that Hark! The Village Wait is quite progressive, and Please to See the King has psych elements that make it rather interesting.

Steeleye Span and Fairport Convention have a musical and personnel relation to The Albion Band, but being related to Prog Related bands wouldn't provide a strong case. Anyway, I'm not that familiar with The Albion Band.

I think if we had open voting on, say, Prog Related, it might well lead to a very overloaded category. And I'm not sure that it would work well for Prog additions. That said, I would like to see more involvement from the membership in the process. When I was on the Eclectic team, and now that I'm part of the Proto-Prog and Prog-Related additions people, I did/do try to take into account the opinions of people. I'm more of a big-umbrella person than many. Personally, though, I'd be more interested in what people say about the music than just how they vote. We've done open votes before, and even if it hasn't meant that those would be included, I haven't found the results illuminating. Too often people vote with their guts without having really delved into enough of the music and with not enough familiarity with the categories at PA. Even reading through the long threads on controversial ones, you see that there is often not a good enough consensus and people are talking past one another. Often one sees far too black-and-white thinking in such topics and ignorance becomes apparent. One would need system so that one is confident that the voters are sufficiently informed voters (have done their research and thought it through carefully before voting). For now, I think having teams is the best way (I do wish albums were tagged by genres) and the least likely to be abused. Also, I wonder if there's even enough general interest here for open voting to work well.

Coming to decision can be a very time-consuming process, and frankly I wouldn't trust everyone in an open vote to put the time into thinking about it and familiarising themselves with the music, related music, and categories enough before voting. Of the general membership, I would tend to trust those people the most who have put lots of time into responding to topics in Suggest New Bands (not just on ones that they knew already, but such topics get very little interest from the general membership most of the time -- at least unless it's a really big name).

Edited by Logan - May 21 2019 at 13:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 14:20
I'm just going off the top of my head with this.

Fairport was added to PR before my time.  Steeleye was added while I was here but my recollection was that they had been rejected for prog folk and somebody outside of the PR team had put them forth for PR, which upset Hugues at the time.

I don't know the Albion band very well though I have one album which is absolutely superb, "Rise up Like the Sun" from 1978, which I think some consider to be their peak, and I also saw them live in the early 1990s and they were great.  But I think your assessment makes sense Greg.  They didn't really have much association with the prog movement, and I don't think they influenced it all that much, which seems to be the more important criteria for inclusion than whether they themselves were influenced by prog, since pretty much every semi serious band was prog influenced in the 1970s.  

Steeleye was a clear influence on Jethro Tull, which is essentially provable by association - Anderson produced their "Now we are Six" album and within a couple of years he rejuvenated Tull with 2 prog folk albums that borrowed a thing or two from Span. 

Fairport was nothing if not influential to the prog and folk scene.  

Albion Band - one of the best known English folk rock groups of their day - they were even started by Ashley Hutchings post Fairport and Steeleye.  They just didn't have a lot of crossover into prog and influence on prog that those other two did IMO.

all that said, I think this one is a masterpiece, and back when I filled in on a folk show in the early 1990s, I would go so far as to say this had been requested by a listener on at least one occasion.  That listener was me





Edited by kenethlevine - May 21 2019 at 14:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 15:21
Thanks Ken, that's very insightful for me.

When talking Prog Related and Proto Prog proposals, influence is considered to be an important factor, and Steeleye Span's influence on Tull, and relationship with Ian Anderson, and such considerations are considered to be an important ingredient in an evaluation. I didn't know about the direct relationship, but I have certainly heard similarities between music by Tull and Span. Had Jethro Tull and Steeleye Span combined, they might have called it sTULLeye something or other... Erm... yeah...

I'm loving "Lay Me Low". I'm going to look for Rise up Like the Sun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 15:28
Tongue

didn't Tull have some Fairport members at some point?  I can't remember whom, but it was around 1979 I believe
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 15:28
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Steeleye was added while I was here but my recollection was that they had been rejected for prog folk and somebody outside of the PR team had put them forth for PR, which upset Hugues at the time.

That was me  LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 15:42
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Steeleye was added while I was here but my recollection was that they had been rejected for prog folk and somebody outside of the PR team had put them forth for PR, which upset Hugues at the time.

That was me  LOL


I think he's gotten over it!  Myself I enjoyed reviewing 8-10 albums that had been so much a part of my youth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 16:24
A while back, I'd suggested Offa Rex, any movement on that?  Only one release so far, but it enjoyed great success and hopefully they will do another.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 16:45
Just cause Ken isn't online now and impatient me dislikes hanging questions even when not addressed to me, Ken brought Offa Rex to the team thread, but it doesn't look like they came to a conclusion on its suitability. I'll bring it up in the team thread.

Speaking of hanging questions:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Tongue

didn't Tull have some Fairport members at some point?  I can't remember whom, but it was around 1979 I believe


from wikipedia:

Quote The band had long ties to folk rockers Steeleye Span (Tull were the backing band on Steeleye Span front woman Maddy Prior's 1978 solo album Woman in the Wings as a way of repaying her for contributing vocals on the Too Old to Rock 'n' Roll: Too Young to Die! album) and with Fairport Convention (Fairport members Dave Pegg, Martin Allcock, Dave Mattacks and Ric Sanders have all played with Tull at one point or another, as well as folk drummer Gerry Conway who became a Fairport member after playing with Tull). Although not formally considered a part of the folk rock movement (which had actually begun nearly a decade earlier with the advent of Fairport Convention), there was clearly an exchange of musical ideas among Tull and the folk rockers...

Their third folk influenced album, Stormwatch, was released in 1979. During the making of the album, Glascock suffered major health issues related to open heart surgery from the previous year, and so Anderson played bass on much of the album. After the release of Stormwatch, due to Glascock's continued health issues, Fairport Convention bassist Dave Pegg was hired for the ensuing tour, during which Glascock died from heart complications at his home in England.


Edited by Logan - May 21 2019 at 16:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 16:49
Thank you, Logan.  I know it takes a really long time, just seeing this thread made me think of it....they pretty much took The Pentangle/Fairport sort of thing a little farther down the line, or at least in a different way and, of course, much later, helping keep this sort of music contemporary.  I think they did a darned fine job of it, being a big fan of Prog/Electric/Folk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 17:06
I've been listening to some Offa Rex. "The Queen of Hearts" is very good. And I love the atmosphere of "The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face".

Edited by Logan - May 21 2019 at 17:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 17:42
Yes, Olivia Chaney's vocals are ethereally beautiful.  There are a couple of live in studio videos of them, fun to see the band.  Glad you've been enjoying them, Logan.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 20:10
Hi everyone.  Apologies for the prog folk delays.  It's been some time since we were active in an ongoing way, and it was clemofnazareth aka Bob who was so good at compiling a list of bands under consideration and what the voting status was for each.  Without him around on a regular basis there has been some slipping thru the cracks.  I'll try to come up with something in that regard asap as it is definitely not just Offa Rex that we need to evaluate/add.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 21:39
OH, no need to apologize...we know everyone here does this on a volunteer basis...it just reminded me that I hadn't seen anything in a while.  You all do a great job at what you do!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 01:51
I'll chime in ASAPWink
 
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

didn't Tull have some Fairport members at some point?  I can't remember whom, but it was around 1979 I believe
 
More like the early 80's with Dave Pegg and Gerry Conway


Edited by Sean Trane - May 22 2019 at 01:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 08:50
Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

OH, no need to apologize...we know everyone here does this on a volunteer basis...it just reminded me that I hadn't seen anything in a while.  You all do a great job at what you do!  

Much appreciated Nicky.  we are moving along.  I came up with a backlog list that we will work on.  There are a few bands that we are good to add and a few others we need to listen to, in some cases again.  Stay tuned.

Exciting news is that Shawn Phillips has been added to prog related, and Al Stewart is still under eval for the same category!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Snicolette Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 09:38
Great news, thank you!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2019 at 18:04
Offa Rex has been added.  
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