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Most underrated prog band?

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BaldJean View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2019 at 11:08
Originally posted by irrelevant irrelevant wrote:

Originally posted by handwrist handwrist wrote:

Gilgamesh. IMO their self titled is one of the best albums ever made.
I love both of their albums! The second one doesn't seem to get as much love (esp. on PA), but I think it may even be better. One of my favourite bands these days. Big smile

I prefer the second album too


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2019 at 16:58
Originally posted by irrelevant irrelevant wrote:

Originally posted by handwrist handwrist wrote:

Gilgamesh. IMO their self titled is one of the best albums ever made.

I love both of their albums! The second one doesn't seem to get as much love (esp. on PA), but I think it may even be better. One of my favourite bands these days. Big smile
I like the second one better too, though both are great. As is Arriving Twice, for that matter.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 07 2019 at 20:36
Originally posted by GingerFox GingerFox wrote:

What do you think is the most underrated prog band?

Quite honestly?  

All of them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 02:19
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

In this spirit I'm rather happy that in this thread even Yes qualify as underrated, because that comment has ultimately taken the last remaining shimmer of an illusion out of the idea that the concept could actually mean anything sensible. I think it was AFlowerKingCrimson, so congratulations for that posting!
So if I state wrongly that "The Beatles weren't very popular" does the concept of "popular" become pointless from now on? We won't have many concepts left if this was the case.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 05:46
Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

In this spirit I'm rather happy that in this thread even Yes qualify as underrated, because that comment has ultimately taken the last remaining shimmer of an illusion out of the idea that the concept could actually mean anything sensible. I think it was AFlowerKingCrimson, so congratulations for that posting!
So if I state wrongly that "The Beatles weren't very popular" does the concept of "popular" become pointless from now on? We won't have many concepts left if this was the case.

That's different. "The Beatles weren't very popular" is a statement about the opinion and behaviour of many people that can be measured by sales etc. When AFlowerKingCrimson writes that "Yes are underrated" it basically means that "a number of people like Yes much less than me", which I'd think is correct, except that for whatever band some people can say this and be right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 06:28
^You missed the point. Although AFlowerCrimson writes that "Yes are underrated" and that feels pointless to most of us - it doesn't mean "Embryo is underrated" can't be a sensible and meaningful statement.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 06:53
So a number of people like Embryo less than you then? Wink
Anyway, I see your point, but I wouldn't use the "underrated" term for that. The issue with "underrated" is that this terms implies "I can rate them correctly but those who underrate them cannot". It comes with a smell of objectivity that is hard to justify; really as hard for Embryo as for Yes.
"More people should listen to Embryo" or "I think there's more to discover in Embryo's music than most people do" are so much better.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 11:36
^Either one has to be allowed to state things that one believes to be correct - based on say... knowledge and experience - or I don't really see much point in visiting a discussion board at all. I know that on this forum "Embryo is underrated" is a more informed thing to write than "Yes is underrated". If someone disagrees with me, well I don't mind (and I know I'm right).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 15:55
What's the difference then between "I believe it's so good that it should be rated higher" and "I like it a lot, and many don't"?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 16:45
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

What's the difference then between "I believe it's so good that it should be rated higher" and "I like it a lot, and many don't"?
We're discussing art and not science of course but for me the difference is rather what knowledge or lack of are those statements based on. Someone who hasn't heard much is more likely to make uninformed statements than someone who's heard and knows a lot. Although one can never be objectively "correct" in the same sense you can be about math - I trust that knowledge and experience gives you weight behind your words and opinions on art as well. I believe more in this than a more relativist view regarding both art and opinions. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fischman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 19:16
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Edited by Fischman - June 08 2019 at 19:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 08 2019 at 19:22
I think that one can put weight into the words by arguing well, coming up with original views and observations etc. The statement "Embryo is underrated" on its own is quite unaffected by whatever information and experience is behind it. (Information and experience by the way are not enough; there are people who use all their information and experience just to confirm whatever view they have held for the last 25 years.)
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2019 at 05:20
Maybe going off on tangents here, it's a late night...

While one should avoid making an argument from authority/appeals to authority, I commonly would trust a person's opinion more if I thought they had more experience when it comes to making their claims. I'd trust a neurosurgeon more to tell me which brain surgery option is better than asking an ice cream vendor, even if the ice cream vendor's arguments are really original (first we brain freeze you with loads of ice-cream, then we use a sugar cone as a shunt, squeeze in gelato...).

A good opinion is a well-informed and well thought-out opinion. I would expect someone who knows lots of Krautrock, Jazz-Rock and psychedelic music to be able to better assess the merits of Embryo than someone who expresses opinions on that albums worth and knows very little similar music (quite often such people resort to apples and oranges comparisons to justify their claims).

I've read reviews, I could link to one but I won't, that have claimed that an album is poor, overrated, and then compared it to music that wasn't even in the same category to make the argument, and clearly was not familiar with the style or had an appreciation of that kind of music. I would sooner value the opinion of someone who is well-informed when it comes to that kind of music, but that doesn't mean that I would necessarily accept their statements as valid (reasonable and rational).

What matters most to me is that there's a good argument and evidence with relevant, acceptable and sufficient premises to back-up the person's conclusions when it comes to the merit. Just saying, "Embryo is underrated" would be pretty meaningless to me whomever said it. Underrated in what way? How would you back up that assertion?   Both experienced and inexperienced people are prone to confirmation bias, and very experienced people can be so set in their ways that their opinions have become far too rigid.

While I would be more likely to trust someone who has demonstrated experience, I would still want cogent arguments to back up those assertions. A neophyte might discover something that demonstrates to me that something has been undervalued or overvalued, and come up with a good,logical framework for an assessment, and someone who seems to have good experience listening to certain music might still not be very insightful, nor offer good reasons, and might have clear biases and factual errors that render their assessments to be useless.

If someone says that x is overrated or underrated, I want to hear justification for the statement, and I want it to be clear how the term is being used.
"The first step on the path to wisdom is the recognition of one's own ignorance" (paraphrased from Plato).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2019 at 08:05
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

I think that one can put weight into the words by arguing well, coming up with original views and observations etc. The statement "Embryo is underrated" on its own is quite unaffected by whatever information and experience is behind it. (Information and experience by the way are not enough; there are people who use all their information and experience just to confirm whatever view they have held for the last 25 years.)
 
No it isn't backed up by anything - nobody asked and it timeconsuming. The simple statement and our discussion are two different things. I'm not talking in absolutes only in general (what else is possible?): based on experience I trust an experienced listened over an inexperienced and its proven wisely in say nine out of ten times. lol. Btw the sort of experience I'm thinking of has to be broad an openminded - not someone with 3000 NWOBHM-albums and nothing else.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2019 at 10:51
Saperlipopette: There's really not much disagreement between us when it comes to questions like whether experience and information are worthwhile, whom to trust when it comes to recommendations, and even that there are more or less let's say helpful or convincing evaluations of music. I even like Embryo (and actually I respect your music knowledge a lot).

My point is just the term "underrated"; by using it you are basically stating that those who rate the band lower than you get it wrong, without any assessment why they're rating it lower, and probably without even knowing the vast majority who rates them lower and their reasons for it. Even if 99% of these fulfill your criteria for being uninformed ignorants, you are sl*g.ing off the remaining 1% wrongly and uselessly, because you could easily get your point across without doing that. Now obviously people do this all the time and it's not a crime, so go on doing it if you must. It won't stop me from checking out the supposedly underrated stuff, however I maintain that the statement ultimately doesn't say anything more than "many people like them less than I do". (Which in fact is quite something if said by somebody with musicality, authority, experience, intelligence, whatever.)

Or actually it does, it also says "I want my statement to sound more authoritative than it would if I just referred to my taste". You could do without, really.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 09 2019 at 12:17
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Saperlipopette: There's really not much disagreement between us when it comes to questions like whether experience and information are worthwhile, whom to trust when it comes to recommendations, and even that there are more or less let's say helpful or convincing evaluations of music. I even like Embryo (and actually I respect your music knowledge a lot).

My point is just the term "underrated"; by using it you are basically stating that those who rate the band lower than you get it wrong, without any assessment why they're rating it lower, and probably without even knowing the vast majority who rates them lower and their reasons for it. Even if 99% of these fulfill your criteria for being uninformed ignorants, you are sl*g.ing off the remaining 1% wrongly and uselessly, because you could easily get your point across without doing that. Now obviously people do this all the time and it's not a crime, so go on doing it if you must. It won't stop me from checking out the supposedly underrated stuff, however I maintain that the statement ultimately doesn't say anything more than "many people like them less than I do". (Which in fact is quite something if said by somebody with musicality, authority, experience, intelligence, whatever.)

Or actually it does, it also says "I want my statement to sound more authoritative than it would if I just referred to my taste". You could do without, really.
Haha I know I got those tendencies I'm well aware. I'm worse than Moshkito, really. It doesn't make me look very sympathetic and in combination with laziness i suppose (writing in english takes too darn long!) neither very impressive. But I'm not gonna pretend I think in another way than I actually do. Whenever someone sl*g. off jazz and think their rock bands are much superior - I don't think that we are both right in our own ways and that its all subjective. I think that I am correct and the rocker (along with most other people on the planet) is wrong. I know I'm gonna keep on using underrated, underappreciated, overrated without backing it up. Those terms are useful and rings true to most of those I am able to communicate about music with. I've introduced hundreds of underrated bands and artists to hundreds of people over the years. I know what I mean by it, and so do others. To me that's personal proof of value and meaning of the term right there. And while you have a point - a point I was already fully aware of, I think you over-exxagerate the negative seriousness of using it. "Everyone" understands the meaning of the term, which is why it will never die - but "Nobody" agrees exactly how it should be used, which is why there will always be a discussion... just like so many other terms we use.

Btw. Embryo wasn't even my suggestion, it was just a handy example.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 10 2019 at 04:43
Originally posted by Chaser Chaser wrote:

This one's been done before and it always prompts a debate about the meaning of "underrated".

I would say it's an artist who hasn't received the recognition they deserve in the prog community or the wider music press, as compared to other artists, based on the quality of their music.

Two obvious ones for me are Gentle Giant and Van der Graff Generator. They are not considered "big six" and yet, for me, their output was often better than some of the big six.

Quite literally came here to say this, and mention those two exact bands. 

So, thank you Clap Cool.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spacegod87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2019 at 05:52
Most prog bands are highly underrated..

But I guess the obvious answer would be Gentle Giant (although even they're mainstream compared to a lot of other prog bands)

I would put Camel in the same boat as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2020 at 00:01
Originally posted by Machinemessiah Machinemessiah wrote:

For me it is Maxophone...


Although there appear to be only one album (or so) -their homonym- I find it highly enjoyable and well rounded: both the italian and the english lyrics versions alike; since this is an album where all songs are, IMO, of premium quality (something rare in albums from less well known bands, outside big six, etc., and a hallmark on the contrary); some are headbangable in the prog sense, some very delicate, with the finest classical guitar extracts and a falsetto which I yearn in more prog bands, so well employed (among other reasons, why I like Yes so much); others highlight the symphonic side, with horns and the like with a reference there to Bartok's Concerto for orchestra. But, when talking RPI, I miss it being mentioned more frequently alongside the Premiatas and the likes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote iluvmarillion Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2020 at 22:54
Originally posted by Spacegod87 Spacegod87 wrote:

Most prog bands are highly underrated..

But I guess the obvious answer would be Gentle Giant (although even they're mainstream compared to a lot of other prog bands)

I would put Camel in the same boat as well.
Gentle Giant is the obvious one, but in recent times definitely Spock's Beard who haven't received due recognition since Neal Morse left the band. Ryo Okumoto I would rate the best Mellotron player in the world today.
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