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patrickq View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 11 2019 at 22:27
Anyone run into something like this? Iím really not into prog metal. At all. But I think Operation:Mindcrime is absolutely fantastic and better than many albums by groups I do love.

OK, thereís one Dream Theater song and one by Angra that I think are really good, but thatís it.

Just curious if you have any personal five-star albums in prog subgenres you otherwise arenít a fan of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Woon Deadn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 01:50

Without a subgenres issue, I simply like one-two albums by the famous prog monsters. Actually, of almost all the possible prog monsters, it's quite the same situation for me.

I pretty much love Fragile by Yes, Lizard by King Crimson, Tarkus by ELP, several albums by Genesis, 3rd and 4th releases by Van der Graaf Generator. JT are an exception, though - I love many their works.
 
Speaking of the same genre where I like a bunch of bands yet only one album by the other... I don't know. I think, in the whole thrash metal genre I love only Ride The Lightning and more or less Master Of Puppets by Metallica. With several other notable releases for a bit. But it's not what you are asking for.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 02:03
Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

Anyone run into something like this?

Just curious if you have any personal five-star albums in prog subgenres you otherwise arenít a fan of.

I can't think of anything, or better said of all the albums from subgenres I don't usually listen to, none I can give 5 stars. For example, I don't listen to much Krautrock, I have listened to Can, Neu, Ash Ra Tempel and a few others, but none I think are 5 stars. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 02:21
Experimental/Post Metal is such a subgenre I neither love nor hate, but Maudlin of the Well's Part the Second is a rock solid 5 star album in my book.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 04:17
Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

Anyone run into something like this? Iím really not into prog metal. At all. But I think Operation:Mindcrime is absolutely fantastic and better than many albums by groups I do love.

I'm with you on prog metal. Just can't get into it beyond a few songs but Mindcrime is amazing. Maybe it's because I was heavily into Queensryche at that time. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 07:04
Not really. Like you, I don't really enjoy prog metal, and I don't listen to it, except when someone else plays it and I happen to be present. I've heard a few interesting things from Tool or Dream Theatre for example, but that's about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 07:06
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...
For example, I don't listen to much Krautrock, I have listened to Can, Neu, Ash Ra Tempel and a few others, but none I think are 5 stars. 

That's a real shame ... some of those folks get academic and historic music credit, unlike the majority of bands, folks and comments here from that Germanic grouping.

The "so-called" krautrock, was not just a music thing by 5 bands, but an artistic concept that can also be found in film, theater and literature in the arts in Germany ... but a pop rock comment ... would probably never know that or even consider it ... 

CAN in particular came from some of the highest and most well regarded music school in the world, and had instructors that most would die too have for one hour in their lifetime ... but if you only like rock'n'roll and top ten? Both KS and TD have gotten (more than once) serious orchestral works done with their music and continue to show that they are not the kind of folks that go ... one and done ... as is usually the case with most rock bands ... or better yet ... saying hello and goodbye in the same sentence, because too many fans are not very good listeners and neither do they take a little bit of time and space to find out what the whole thing is about ... 


Edited by moshkito - June 12 2019 at 07:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 07:35
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...
For example, I don't listen to much Krautrock, I have listened to Can, Neu, Ash Ra Tempel and a few others, but none I think are 5 stars. 

That's a real shame ... some of those folks get academic and historic music credit, unlike the majority of bands, folks and comments here from that Germanic grouping.

The "so-called" krautrock, was not just a music thing by 5 bands, but an artistic concept that can also be found in film, theater and literature in the arts in Germany ... but a pop rock comment ... would probably never know that or even consider it ... 

CAN in particular came from some of the highest and most well regarded music school in the world, and had instructors that most would die too have for one hour in their lifetime ... ohhh, sorry ... you don't care ... you only like rock'n'roll and top ten, right? Both KS and TD have gotten (more than once) serious orchestral works done with their music and continue to show that they are not the kind of folks that go ... one and done ... as is usually the case with most rock bands ... or better yet ... saying hello and goodbye in the same sentence, because too many fans are not very good listeners and neither to do take a little bit of time and space to find out what the whole thing is about ... I guess that it's all Sex Pistols for you!

Not only you misunderstood what I said, but you decide to insult me. Nice!

The fact that I think those bands I mentioned are not 5 star material, does not mean I do not like them. 5 stars means masterpiece and I've yet to discover one in Krautrock territory. (3 stars means a good album. 4 star means very good). 

I've spent plenty of time listening to Can and Ash Ra Tempel...

So because of what I said or rather you thought I meant, I probably listen to punk... How sensible of you...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 07:44
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

...
Not only you misunderstood what I said, but you decide to insult me. Nice!
...

Cleaned it up and my apologies ... it wasn't really intended that way any more than like a SNL moment or a Goon/MontyPython moment ... something that too often goes over people's heads here.

I can see it now ... you listening with an intellectual context to the Sex Pistols ... c'mon ... give it a break!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 08:31
I started reading PA reviews well over a decade ago. I thought I knew for sure Schulze was Krautrock. But heís electronic prog here... Now thereís some 5-star music.

Edited by patrickq - June 12 2019 at 08:32
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 09:46
I have found some pretty good Progressive Metal on this site listening to bands I hadn't heard of before, even in this current year.  There has been some surprisingly dynamic music come out.  The genre I usually have problems with is the Extreme/Tech Metal genre.  I find that I don't like the growling or screaming vocals that are usually present on that genre, however, if the music is varied enough, I have found some bands that I love, like Opeth, Agalloch, Kayo Dot, and Orphaned Land to name a few.  So I usually try to hear a bit of everything just in case.  Some of the Progressive Metal bands (and the Experimental/Post Metal bands) use dirty vocals, but to a lesser extent usually, and that can scare people off, but there have been some real gems come from those genres that I would have otherwise missed if I ignored them all together.
What are you looking down here for?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 11:32
No
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 11:37
At least when it comes to Prog Archives classification (which I think too limited and limiting), I'd say with most of the albums I like by bands included in categories I don't generally enjoy, the albums are not good representatives of the category, and if we had album-tagging, then the "genre" and "genres" of an album would tell a different or more complex story. I won't have good examples for this topic, so feel free to skip this post altogether.

I'd mention Kayo Dot. Now it is in the RIO/ Avant Prog category at Prog Archives (if we categorised by album rather than band, then albums would be placed differently), but when I joined it was in Prog Metal, later it was moved to Experimental/Post Metal, and then later it was moved to RIO/ Avant Prog. That said, I prefer non-metal Kayo Dot such as Blue Lambency Downward to the metal of Choirs of the Eye, but I do like Choirs of the Eye. Related to it, I also enjoy Maudlin of the Well, and that is included in Experimental/Post Metal. Actually, there are a number of albums in that category that I enjoy.

Of what is sometimes called the vanilla Prog Metal category, I can only think of one band that is included in it that I enjoy, Diablo Swing Orchestra (though I wouldn't describe it as vanilla and it's not really five stars to me). I like the debut The Butcher's Ballroom, which is fairly avant-garde metal meets swing.

While I don't much like metal generally, there are many that have that as a compent (late edit, I meant component) that I do enjoy, such as Secret Chiefs 3, HŲyry-kone, Alamaailman Vasarat, Taal..., maybe I'd include Guapo for a certain brutalness (or should I say brutality?) in this list.

Neo-Prog is not a category I'm into, yet I enjoyed one called Discipline (later it was moved out of that category). Right now included in that category I like Marc Ceccotti solo for Sometimes Around Saturn, but then despite any Neo-Prog elements, and his relatedness as an artist, I would not classify the album as Neo-prog (it's spacey, and more experimental). It's not a five star album to me.

I'm also not generally not big on "Heavy prog" or "hard rock", but I can think of quite a number of ones of that ilk(or where that is a quality), especially early ones with psych qualities that would rate five stars for me, and various of those are included in our Heavy Prog category.

Edited by Logan - June 12 2019 at 12:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 13:10
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

At least when it comes to Prog Archives classification (which I think too limited and limiting), I'd say with most of the albums I like by bands included in categories I don't generally enjoy, the albums are not good representatives of the category, and if we had album-tagging, then the "genre" and "genres" of an album would tell a different or more complex story.
...

Of all the classifications, the one that is scariest for me is the complete mis-representation of the word "symphonic", which in history of music would mean this:

1. Harmonious and/or symphonius
2. Relating to or having the form or character of a symphony

This is per Merrian Webster, forks ... and the scariest part is using this as a "classification" when in so many ways, there just as many pieces of progressive rock (Iron Maiden, Dream Theater, and others) that create long pieces of music INTENTIONALLY with symphonic designs more often than not.

This, even goes back to "krautrock" and Amon Duul 2, when Renate has stated before that they were hoping to do something with a bit more classical look and style ... and it's there from the start, and for my tastes, it is a MASSIVE reaction to the aimless drum thing that the original commune used to do, shown in Amon Duul 1 and how aimless it was for the most part ... nice trip ... nothing else ... I guess that is all dope is good for, right?

I would like to see the "progressive" genres and definitions, be more up to par with the history of music, and thus make these things CLEAR and less confusing. AND, right after that make a point that this is about the "composer" and "compositions from that group" and not just one song.

Likewise, calling something "symphonic" simply because it has keyboards is astoundingly ridiculous and crazy. I guess only bands that don't have keyboards can never be considered "symphonic", but even Guru Guru in its long excursions could easily be assimilated to be "symphonic" in its "story" thru the continuation and definition of that piece.

Very scary stuff, specially when it is a geek oriented thing that is intentionally ignoring music history as a reaction to its rigid forms.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 13:59
I don't like how Symphonic Prog is used either, or many neologisms (if not new now, they once were). Having grown up with classical music (or more accurately Western Art Music), I found the term Symphonic Prog rather misleading. That said, once something has come into common parlance, and assuming that enough people will be able to understand what is said so it's not that confusing, I'm generally fine with such constructs. Neo-Prog is one that bothers some, and it has been suggested that that should be revised. Perhaps Symphonic Prog should only refer to ones that fit classic symphonic definitions. Revisionism is something that does often get my goat, and I do like terms to be understood in the context of a fairly comprehensive history.

I dislike in most restaurants here that when they say entrťe it just means the "main" rather than the starter course. French and English are Canada's two official languages so I would even more expect it not to be used that way than, say, in Australia. Perhaps somebody got it wrong somehow and it stuck. I also dislike the politicised, rather than coming from psychologists, forms of phobia as a suffix -- meaning bigotry generally rather than as a diagnosed mental disorder that involves an irrational fear, which is not to say that one needn't be a bigot and have an irrational fear, of course (height and open spaces bigots are the worst!) ;)

"I would like to see the "progressive" genres and definitions, be more up to par with the history of music, and thus make these things CLEAR and less confusing. AND, right after that make a point that this is about the "composer" and "compositions from that group" and not just one song."

Of course once can classify on the song level, and one song is a composition. A composer may focus on a different musical genre for each album, and in an album each song may be of a different genre. An album can be very eclectic.

What I find worrisome is the general lack of rational scepticism amongst many, even among many people thought of as geeks... and climate change is scary, so are tsunamis and terrorism, and well, actually I find a lot of stuff very scary, but I digress. EDIT: What else is worrying is that I make typos all too often.

Edited by Logan - June 12 2019 at 15:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 12 2019 at 23:38
Pull Me Under is probably the only Dream Theater song that I really like, yet I find most of their music moderately entertaining. The only Porcupine Tree album I truly get into is Deadwing. Tago Mago is the only Can album I have and most of it I do not care much for except for Augm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2019 at 13:25
Can't think of a one.......done.

;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2019 at 13:55
Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

Anyone run into something like this? Iím really not into prog metal. At all. But I think Operation:Mindcrime is absolutely fantastic and better than many albums by groups I do love.

OK, thereís one Dream Theater song and one by Angra that I think are really good, but thatís it.

Just curious if you have any personal five-star albums in prog subgenres you otherwise arenít a fan of.
 

If you like O:M, I strongly recommend QR's first full studio album, The Warning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2019 at 19:30
Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

Anyone run into something like this? Iím really not into prog metal. At all. But I think Operation:Mindcrime is absolutely fantastic and better than many albums by groups I do love.

OK, thereís one Dream Theater song and one by Angra that I think are really good, but thatís it.

Just curious if you have any personal five-star albums in prog subgenres you otherwise arenít a fan of.

If you like O:M, I strongly recommend QR's first full studio album, The Warning.


Before Operation:Mindcrime there was this guy who raved endlessly about their first EP (which I always thought was called Queen of the Reich. Havenít heard any pre-Operation:Mindcrime Queensrˇche since then (probably 1987). I wasnít impressed then, but that was 30+ years ago. Iíll give The Warning a try. Interesting, this dude was a Fates Warning fan too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 13 2019 at 19:35
Not in the slightest. I love everything from cheesy pop to the most extreme metal and farthest out trips possible. The secret is to tune in to the frequency of the music at hand and hone in to where the specified genre's peak points are. Everything is beautiful just like every element on the period table is gorgeous where its atomic principles reign supreme. 

And BTW, WTF is this crap where this Oath page pops up if you happen to click on all the invisible space on this site?

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
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