Forum Home Forum Home > Site News, Newbies, Help and Improvements > Help us improve the site
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>
Author
Message
 Rating: Topic Rating: 1 Votes, Average 1.00  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14717 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?
    Posted: June 17 2019 at 07:26
Tried to post this in the collab section but it wouldn't let me.

There is a general consensus of the tag BRUTAL PROG as a bona fide subgenre of progressive rock. Many of the bands on this site are tagged under RIO / Avant but many have been rejected. It's a style of prog that is as brutal as metal but not quite fitting into the metal world but sometimes easily crosses over and still in some cases does qualify as experimental or avant-garde metal.

Looks like this topic has been suggested before but with no responses and then quickly locked.

Definition by RYM:
First coined by Weasel Walter of the band The Flying Luttenbachers, Brutal Prog describes a diverse array of artists working within the Progressive Rock and Avant-Prog idioms. Brutal Prog combines the intensity and sonic dissonance of genres like Hardcore Punk, Noise Rock, No Wave, and Free Jazz with the complexity and adventurousness of Progressive Rock, Avant-Prog, and Math Rock. 

Though the genre has its precursors (such as the highly influential group Ruins), its peak of popularity occurred in the early 2000s with bands like Upsilon Acrux, Hella, Zs, Ahleuchatistas, Yowie, and Grand Ulena. 

Weasel Walter's own ugEXPLODE, as well as Skin Graft Records, Cuneiform Records and Tzadik, featured numerous Brutal Prog bands.

I recently also made a comprehensive list of BRUTAL PROG artists for my own amusement.
  • quîntĒSSĖNTÎÅL~BRüT@L~PRôG~fîxx

In addition to RYM recognizing this sub as a worthy addition, so do many other sites. 




Many others simply give multiple tags to cover it. Ruins is for example prog rock, noise rock, avant-garde jazz, harsh noise, zeuhl, avant-garde metal.

The tag is much more widely used than when the original suggestion was presented in 2006 so maybe it's time to consider it as a worthy new sub here.

First of all, is it even possible to add a new sub with the owner's involvement with the site?

Secondly, who else thinks it's a valid tag worthy of addition? 

Thirdly, if everyone does agree what would it entail if we added such a new sub to the database?

I've already made a comprensive list of worthy candidates so that aspect of the research has been done.

Let the comments begin! Wink

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
patrickq View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 18 2015
Location: the New England
Status: Offline
Points: 508 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 08:09
Why not? Jazz Music Archives and Metal Music Archives have many more subgenres and (in the case of MMA anyway) many fewer titles.
Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 08:39
Absolutely! Well, that is, if it's feasible while M@X is MIA. 

Brutal Prog is home to some of the most forward thinking bands out there. Even if the tag isn't added, I recommend checking out that list. 
My Music
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Forum Guest Group
Forum Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 08:51
Since it's not a suggestion of a specific band I moved the topic here in 'Help Us Improve The Site' where I can see a thread like this being opened.

The answer to the question of the topic at hand is a no though, I'm not going by merits or familiarity with it or anything, adding a new genre seems to be another thing that isn't possible of doing without M@X. Since he barely notices some other more serious issues I doubt he's gonna jump on this one.
Back to Top
patrickq View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 18 2015
Location: the New England
Status: Offline
Points: 508 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 09:29
Originally posted by historian9 historian9 wrote:

Since it's not a suggestion of a specific band I moved the topic here in 'Help Us Improve The Site' where I can see a thread like this being opened.

The answer to the question of the topic at hand is a no though, I'm not going by merits or familiarity with it or anything, adding a new genre seems to be another thing that isn't possible of doing without M@X. Since he barely notices some other more serious issues I doubt he's gonna jump on this one.

M@X sounds like a web wizard who’s moved on from Prog Archives. Is that correct?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Forum Guest Group
Forum Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 09:36
^I don't know anything about his moving on or reasons for it, but he was the only web wizard around, yes. I think it will almost be a year since he visited.
Back to Top
Quinino View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 26 2011
Location: Portugal
Status: Offline
Points: 3654 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Quinino Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 15:44
Well, he smashed the craptcha bug, didn't he ?

(so he must keep some kind of intervention - at least of pest control)
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14717 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 17:37
Originally posted by historian9 historian9 wrote:

Since it's not a suggestion of a specific band I moved the topic here in 'Help Us Improve The Site' where I can see a thread like this being opened.

The answer to the question of the topic at hand is a no though, I'm not going by merits or familiarity with it or anything, adding a new genre seems to be another thing that isn't possible of doing without M@X. Since he barely notices some other more serious issues I doubt he's gonna jump on this one.

Well he barely visits MMA either but we still got several new subs added last year. Just throw it on the list. I'm just putting it up for discussion in case it is ever possible to request such a thing. And curious as to what everyone else thinks.

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
patrickq View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 18 2015
Location: the New England
Status: Offline
Points: 508 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote patrickq Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 18:57
So would some artists be moved from other genres to Brutal Prog? Just curious.
Back to Top
Jaketejas View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 27 2018
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 1968 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jaketejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 19:08
As long as you don't call my subgenre Wussy Prog, I'm okay with it.
Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 20:47
Originally posted by patrickq patrickq wrote:

So would some artists be moved from other genres to Brutal Prog? Just curious.
Probably. Most of the Brutal Prog that gets added here is put in either avant-prog or math rock.
My Music
Back to Top
Man With Hat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team

Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 20:52
I don't see this as necessary, since the RIO/Avant page mentions brutal prog and anything associated with the genre is placed there. Having brutal be a sub of the Avant sub just makes the most sense to me, as antying I''ve heard that gets tagged as brutal prog is in the avant field. 
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
Back to Top
Polymorphia View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Polymorphia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 22:51
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

I don't see this as necessary, since the RIO/Avant page mentions brutal prog and anything associated with the genre is placed there. Having brutal be a sub of the Avant sub just makes the most sense to me, as antying I''ve heard that gets tagged as brutal prog is in the avant field. 
You wouldn't be wrong if you called it avant, but you also wouldn't be wrong if you called it math rock. It carries the defining characteristics of both, but doesn't much sound like the other bands in those categories. I think if you are looking for brutal prog bands, it would help to have a tag for it, but, on the other hand, RYM is many steps ahead of PA in that regard. I'm not sure how PA could compete.

Edited by Polymorphia - June 17 2019 at 22:52
My Music
Back to Top
Man With Hat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team

Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 23:02
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

I don't see this as necessary, since the RIO/Avant page mentions brutal prog and anything associated with the genre is placed there. Having brutal be a sub of the Avant sub just makes the most sense to me, as antying I''ve heard that gets tagged as brutal prog is in the avant field. 
You wouldn't be wrong if you called it avant, but you also wouldn't be wrong if you called it math rock. It carries the defining characteristics of both, but doesn't much sound like the other bands in those categories. I think if you are looking for brutal prog bands, it would help to have a tag for it, but, on the other hand, RYM is many steps ahead of PA in that regard. I'm not sure how PA could compete.
 

No doubt RE: math rock. But at least from what I know of math rock, these bands are certainly much 'uglier' and out, which I would attribute to the avant influence. 

But then again, there is probably a lot of overlap between the avant-rock and math-rock worlds, at least theoretically. 
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
Back to Top
siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

Joined: October 05 2013
Location: SFcaUsA
Status: Offline
Points: 14717 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2019 at 23:10
Yeah, but there are many that have equal amounts of jazz influences. If we are all about lumping together then why are there three metal categories? Why not just Prog metal and be done with it? But we have extreme and experimental. If we were going to do lumping together then why not post-rock with post-metal and just call it post-prog! I suggested it because it seems to be a term that is popular now. If we don't care about being on the cutting edge of prog then it doesn't matter but it seems we should separate them just for those who don't want to wade through all the avant- just to find something brutally avant.

https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy
Back to Top
Man With Hat View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team

Joined: March 12 2005
Location: Neurotica
Status: Offline
Points: 166178 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 00:20
I believe metal was split because it was just too large and unwieldy. Someone from the prog metal team can correct me if my memory is a failure. (It might have had something to do with all the extreme metal bands that were added that are quite a bit different from dream theater and the traditional prog metal stuff, as well.)
Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
Back to Top
NotAProghead View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Errors & Omissions Team

Joined: October 22 2005
Location: Russia
Status: Offline
Points: 7678 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NotAProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 01:00
What's the use of inventing artificial genres? And where we find brutal men to make a Brutal Team? Smile
Who are you and who am I to say we know the reason why... (D. Gilmour)
Back to Top
Saperlipopette! View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 20 2010
Location: Tomorrowland
Status: Offline
Points: 10017 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saperlipopette! Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 02:11
Originally posted by NotAProghead NotAProghead wrote:

What's the use of inventing artificial genres? And where we find brutal men to make a Brutal Team? Smile
All genres are invented and artificial. But I agree there's no need for this so called genre.

Like eclectic - brutal isn't a genre. Its possibly an additional descriptor. "Yeah they are avant but brutal". Ask for descriptors instead of even more silly genre-inventions.
Back to Top
Sean Trane View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator

Prog Folk

Joined: April 29 2004
Location: Heart of Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 19597 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 02:43

Is it time for Brutal Prog as a new sub?

naaaah, ELP is fine where it is!! TonguePigEvil SmileClown

Edited by Sean Trane - June 18 2019 at 02:52
Back to Top
Jeffro View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 29 2014
Location: USA
Status: Offline
Points: 2029 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jeffro Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2019 at 04:24
"Brutal" prog?? Do you have to hit yourself over the head with a blunt object when you listen to it? What a silly sounding genre name. 
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 4>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.172 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.