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Thick as a Brick: Overrated on Progarchives

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siLLy puPPy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2019 at 14:55
It is a true shame that Under Wraps isn't in the #1 position LOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheLionOfPrague Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2019 at 19:47
I think it's brilliant, and only Close to the Edge and Dark Side are better prog albums. I rate higher than Animals, Wish You Where, In the Court and Selling England though they're all close. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2019 at 22:55
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

This site is as usual torn into its two hemispheres. You have the moshkito anti genesis rant, siding with the emperors new clothes aficionados who wonder why an album of random noises and mind boggingly repetitious themes isnt valued by those people who have taken the saucepan off their heads and actually like a haunting melody or the power of the skillful arpegio or moving chord sequences....TAAB is an important concept album from 1972. And I have a mint vinyl copy in my vault. Part of my retirement fund if I can bear to sell it....

I like works of art ... I don't go around telling you that only a piece of Guernica (the left corner for you with a broken _______!), or a piece of the Mona Lisa (just half of her smile!), or a full frontal of Miro .... like so many folks around here do, is progressive and the rest is regressive! Pay attention to the line and comment plz!

I respect the artistic vision, and what/how these things are presented.

YOU DON'T ... and would rather postulate that the artist is WRONG in creating such ideas and visions, and then leaving us wondering what it means, and why waste vinyl space (then!) ... and my comment to you is ... go buy something else ... the Xes Pistols need your money a bit more than GENESIS!

I'm OK with you not understanding side 3 ... but saying it is crap because you don't like it, is out of line, and just shows how you disrespecting the artistic ideas and creativity. You don't like one sculptor because that man is thinking. You hate Michelangelo, because the church told him to make that penis small to make sure and not emphasize the sex side of things ... despite the rich folks around the church doing otherwise, of course!

To be a reviewer, and an honest one, yes, there are things you might not like, but state that and leave it at that, and perhaps even explain WHY you don't like it ... too many folks here say they don't like something and it is pretty obvious it is just a preference ... THEY NEVER TELL YOU WHY ... I'm betting my nickels they don't know ... and neither do you, when you make comments that are so disrespectful to the artistic community as a whole!

FREEDOM ... specially in the arts, is one of the most important things of all in our life ... and for the record ... IT WAS ONE OF THE MAIN DRIVES OF PROGRESSIVE MUSIC in those days ... but you have already dismissed all the social and political commentary on KC's early work ... because you don't like it!

SHAME on YOU!



 

To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. You seem to be seeking something that most people don't care about.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2019 at 11:59
^ My point entirely. Moshkito has such a high intellect that us prog plebs who rather liked the theatrical Genesis shows were not privy (like he was) to the lost tribe of the amazon delta who had performed Watcher of the skies using stretched skins of the sun bear and a massed choir of bushmaster snakes which predated the mellotron by 500 years....

Edited by M27Barney - July 18 2019 at 12:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2019 at 06:37
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...

Comparing it to a painting, was a way to show how folks tend to select bits and pieces and leave behind the rest ... you must really think that no artist out there is intelligent enough to create something ... just because you don't like it!

IT obviously has some meaning for its creator/s ... and you don't think that meaning is important or valuable, because you don't like that part! AND, WORSE OF ALL ... THAT THE SOCIAL MEDIA HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL THE ARTIST HE IS FUDGED AND WRONG, SPECIALLY 45 YEARS LATER! It was what it was at the time, and can be explained ... but you appear to be so commercialized (how weird ... and into "progressive music"!), that you can not separate and notice the difference. It's as if you are only looking for approval ratings, because you could not possibly agree with Mosh on the arts and his general respect for them ... every piece in its entirety ... not just a portion of it!

That is sad, sick, and I'm not sure that is appreciating the music (or the arts) at all ... there are a lot of things in "progressive" that I am not quite fond at, but at the very least, I have respect for their work and continuity ... and you are basically saying that YES and GENESIS are crap on the basis of one side of an album you did not "get" ... and are not even reading the notes on the album to find out what it is about!

I'm now wondering who is more overrated! Confused


Edited by moshkito - July 19 2019 at 06:41
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now try finding your own mirror/art! www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2019 at 08:34
Eh. Moshkito...why use so many words.
You tend to overread every post and your responses are so post modernist that you are probably a WUM (wind up merchant). You are the spinal-tap poster and probably the archetypal prog connoisseur that the music industry always quotes to enforce its anti prog snobbery...

Edited by M27Barney - July 19 2019 at 08:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2019 at 09:34
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

mini rant here

I will never understand why this album is so highly rated, its ranked at number 3. That means that its supposed to be better than Wish you were Here, Court of the Crimson King, Foxtrot, Animals, Red, Pawn Hearts, and several other legendary prog albums. Its not a bad album or anything but to me its not even in the same league as most the top 50. Every other album in we'll say the top 20, has awesome soaring highs. TAAB is filled with several forced transitions and I just cant fathom how it could be top 3. 4 Star album

Please tell me i'm not alone in this

Since i'm speaking of this, I'll also throw in that I think Moving Pictures is overrated on PA, certainly not better than Hemispheres or Farewell to Kings. Side one is very very good, but side two is mostly quite dull specifically the last two tracks.


It's all just opinions isn't it?  For me, TAAB is head and shoulders above CTTE, which I can't fathom at all.  CTTE is virtually unlistenable to me.  And someone else will say SEBTP is crap.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2019 at 11:43
^ That would be my wife or eldest son...mind you they like the bee gees and big band crooners respectively. But they would hate all 500 of the top prog releases😎
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2019 at 17:17
Most every time the words "I like Side One better than Side Two" are spoken, the album is probably overrated. For me, that can be said as Thick' wanders on the second side and loses much of its steam because of it. Not as go to as its successor.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M27Barney Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2019 at 02:05
ELP releases suffer the Whiffy "arsehole" track...mind you SEBTP has "more fool me" but TFTO is brilliant from start to finish...so perhaps that should be No 1...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2019 at 08:27
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

Eh. Moshkito...why use so many words.
You tend to overread every post and your responses are so post modernist that you are probably a WUM (wind up merchant). You are the spinal-tap poster and probably the archetypal prog connoisseur that the music industry always quotes to enforce its anti prog snobbery...

I don't see all this as "snobbery" as so many folks here like to state, which is a terrible mis-use of the word.

Some, or you, doesn't matter, don't like the discussion, when using a painting, a novel, or something else as a comparative point, and the sad fact is ... you won't look at the whole painting, or read the whole novel, to find out where you kinda failed to understand the whole thing. Many novels are over 1000 pages long (no one will EVER read those on Kindle or any other program!), and essentially, it's as if you have already made up your mind that 800 pages of Crime and Punishment, or Moby Dick, are sheer crap and unnecessary to tell a story ... there is nothing valuable in all those "extra" pages.

I seriously doubt that PG/GENESIS, or JON/YES were so smug and snobbish as to just create something that you would not like, or understand. And you call me "snobbish" because I defend their right, as an ARTIST, to express themselves ... but your social/media stance, does not allow for artists to express themselves in such a way that you have to THINK, and identify what he/she is saying. 

Today's art, is not the 14th, 15th and 16th century arts, which were controlled by the church in Europe ... but what you guys are doing here, is making sure we have another prohibition age ... and your child is just another child in the City of Lost Children ... with their dreams stolen and violated!

In the end, what this is all saying is that the media, has become a witch-hunt for artists ... they don't like anyone that creates more than simple words to tell them what it all means ... Miro said nothing with his paintings. Cezanne didn't care what you thought. Picasso, told everyone, that if you could do better, go paint it yourself ... but you (the fan) could not create a sculpture or another great piece of work. 

Too many here, comment, and in the end, their short comments, with no explanation, is just a way to say that they are not well defined enough to make such a point ... and you think that this is about me and too many words. The number of words is not important, as the value in them, and some folks here are INTENTIONALLY making an effort to devalue the words, because they think their opinion is right and any other is wrong. In actuality they are just being a commoner on the street agreeing with everyone else, because they are afraid their neighbor will not like them otherwise!

Over rated? TAAB is a wonderful piece of music, although I think that some of the lyrics are ... an excuse for the piece of work, and I am almost positive that Ian did it on purpose thinking that 45 years later, we would stupidly sit here and discuss the value of his album ... he's probably laughing so hard right now ... but I'll tell you what ... tell him that one piece of his music is too long and weird, and you know what he is going to tell you?

Face it ... is it an artist you want, or just another pop song?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2019 at 08:52
I enjoy TAAB immensely, side 1 at least. And if someone nearby wants to listen to the far weaker side 2, fine letís do so. I have to agree with the OP, though, that it is overrated at number 3. To me this is obviously so because it canít be rated higher than their best album, Aqualung. The drumming parts on TAAB are underwhelming as it is with most post-Aqualung albums when Clive Bunker was replaced. Either Barriemore Barlow did not know when to put in fleurishes to complement the music or Ian Andersonís increased domination over the writing produced very dull drum parts. I agree with the OP that the transitions were sometimes forced, but would also add that some sections were repeated too many times, making the album feel to me like it ran out of ideas. Again, I do like TAAB, even love it, but I do not number 3 love it.




Edited by HackettFan - July 20 2019 at 08:53
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2019 at 09:54
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

The drumming parts on TAAB are underwhelming as it is with most post-Aqualung albums when Clive Bunker was replaced. Either Barriemore Barlow did not know when to put in fleurishes to complement the music or Ian Andersonís increased domination over the writing produced very dull drum parts. 

I read this over a couple of times; unfortunately, the wording didn't change -- and it is still dead wrong. I would suggest that Barlow's contribution added real fire to every album he was on, and that he was actually more technically advanced and powerful than Bunker, who was really good in his own right. Barlow was the perfect complement to the more progressive albums that Tull released after Aqualung. I don't think Bunker could have done it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rednight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2019 at 11:39
Barlow added greatly to all the albums he was on - period.
"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2019 at 02:05
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...

Comparing it to a painting, was a way to show how folks tend to select bits and pieces and leave behind the rest ... you must really think that no artist out there is intelligent enough to create something ... just because you don't like it!

IT obviously has some meaning for its creator/s ... and you don't think that meaning is important or valuable, because you don't like that part! AND, WORSE OF ALL ... THAT THE SOCIAL MEDIA HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL THE ARTIST HE IS FUDGED AND WRONG, SPECIALLY 45 YEARS LATER! It was what it was at the time, and can be explained ... but you appear to be so commercialized (how weird ... and into "progressive music"!), that you can not separate and notice the difference. It's as if you are only looking for approval ratings, because you could not possibly agree with Mosh on the arts and his general respect for them ... every piece in its entirety ... not just a portion of it!

That is sad, sick, and I'm not sure that is appreciating the music (or the arts) at all ... there are a lot of things in "progressive" that I am not quite fond at, but at the very least, I have respect for their work and continuity ... and you are basically saying that YES and GENESIS are crap on the basis of one side of an album you did not "get" ... and are not even reading the notes on the album to find out what it is about!

I'm now wondering who is more overrated! Confused
 

I never suggested (and it would be crazy for me to say it) that I didn't think an artist was intelligent enough to create something simply because I don't appreciate it. That's just you drawing an erroneous conclusion (again). 

I respect anyone who can write and create original music. To me that's a form of magic.  However I will never pretend to like everything they do and if that means I am disrespecting the artist then well I must have no damn respect for any of them!

Worthwhile music to me is anything that is not 3 minute formula driven radio drivel. I don't have to like all of it but I do appreciate the ambition of anyone attempting to do something different. That's all there is with art. Human beings are not perfect I'm afraid and art reflects that (or should do). Music although being art can also have a decent tune to divert your attention from whether it's really any good. Perhaps that the nub of my argument perhaps.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2019 at 04:04
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...

No, what he means is when we listen to music, we react viscerally.  We don't try to analyse it.  We may and there's nothing wrong with that either but it's not like we do it every single time and every work of art.  An idea that would be easy enough for you to grasp if you didn't overanalyse the opinions of commenters on PA.  Since you seem to appreciate music in ways elusive to us plebs, wouldn't your time be better utilised in the service of THAT endeavour than trying to educate the patently illiterate? Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HackettFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2019 at 15:27
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

The drumming parts on TAAB are underwhelming as it is with most post-Aqualung albums when Clive Bunker was replaced. Either Barriemore Barlow did not know when to put in fleurishes to complement the music or Ian Andersonís increased domination over the writing produced very dull drum parts.†


I read this over a couple of times; unfortunately, the wording didn't change -- and it is still dead wrong. I would suggest that Barlow's contribution added real fire to every album he was on, and that he was actually more technically advanced and powerful than Bunker, who was really good in his own right. Barlow was the perfect complement to the more progressive albums that Tull released after Aqualung. I don't think Bunker could have done it.

Assertion made and response given. I'll throw in the base as well. I don't like the whole rhythm section by and large following Aqualung. Songs From the Wood (the song) is another example of what I consider a dull and uninspired rhythm section. There was an interview at some point (probably in the late mid to late 80s) in which Ian Anderson gave a little light-hearted criticism of Clive Bunker for not being very consistent in keeping time. Obviously for an album-long piece prior to the digital age, this could be an issue. Barlow probably was/is superior in that regard. My criticism was in terms of the writing. That is, the space within an arrangement that the drums occupy. I really don't care if anyone actually agrees. That's my opinion. The real reason I'm following up the post is to pose the question of who was really responsible for the writing of the rhythm section. My understanding is that Ian Anderson was extremely comprehensive in the writing department to include other people's parts. How much leeway and input were others allowed as they entered and exited the band? And specifically, how large was Ian's role in designing the rhythmic aspects of the pieces? This is an open question for anyone who reads this post. My guess is that Ian assumed more control as others exited, but I don't have much deep knowledge. I'd be happy to hear any insightful comments.







Edited by HackettFan - July 21 2019 at 15:31
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2019 at 18:46
Originally posted by HackettFan HackettFan wrote:

 Assertion made and response given. I'll throw in the base as well. I don't like the whole rhythm section by and large following Aqualung. Songs From the Wood (the song) is another example of what I consider a dull and uninspired rhythm section.

Sorry, I completely disagree with you, completely and utterly. I would suggest that Barlow had a far better technique for the more intricate compositions found on TAAB, APP, MitG, SFTW, etc. Bunker was fine, at times exceptional, in the milieu of early Tull (i.e., jazzy blues, straight blues and rock), but he was not the drummer to go in the direction that Tull did after 1971. And I would also say the bass line Jon Glasscock laid down surpassed Cornick and Hammond on the bass.

Listen to Barlow from 2:28 on:


No way in Hell is Bunker going to do that. I think Barlow had a much better grasp of orchestral arrangements, which a lot of the 70s Tull compositions required, plus his extensive use of the glockenspiel and marimbas. Listen to Glasscock and Barlow, it's masterful and so damn precise...





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2019 at 05:16
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
To be honest you seem to miss the point that must people treat music as something to be enjoyed. You really don't have to appreciate the artists vision to enjoy the music. I just like the sound of a Hammond for the sake of it and not because it speaks to me in some way. Equating music with paintings is just not relevant to the discussion I'm afraid to say. 

How sad ... and an important person in PA, that usually has very good comments on music and a lot of the work done here, and you come around ... and pretty much admit that more than half of the music you listen to, you don't pay attention to at all ...
Quite clearly, Richard did not say/admit anything of the sort.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 22 2019 at 05:17
Originally posted by M27Barney M27Barney wrote:

^ My point entirely. Moshkito has such a high intellect that us prog plebs who rather liked the theatrical Genesis shows were not privy (like he was) to the lost tribe of the amazon delta who had performed Watcher of the skies using stretched skins of the sun bear and a massed choir of bushmaster snakes which predated the mellotron by 500 years....
 
LOL
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