Is prog opposed to the idea of hit songs? |
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20092 |
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It's always so hard to tell what he means amongst all the bilious gas.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Prog Sothoth
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 03 2011 Location: MA Status: Offline Points: 1940 |
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Once in minus 18 degree Celsius weather I was waiting outside for a train and saw an attractive woman wearing black tights and a short fluffy jacket talking to some bloke. Her butt was facing at an angle toward me (and yes I was occasionally glancing at it), then suddenly, due to the black background of her tights, I saw a grey puff cloud appear that looked like she suddenly sprouted what looked like a grey fox tail, then it immediately dispersed. This happened while she kept cheerfully talking to the guy, and of course he couldn't see that quick burst of gaseous release. Super cold weather can bring out the truth! So technically I could have fired a blank from a pistol at the fox tail (and gotten arrested afterwards), though the pistol would've needed to be within the actual fox tail next to her butt when fired for the blank to be shot "into" the fart.
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Frenetic Zetetic
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 09 2017 Location: Now Status: Offline Points: 9228 |
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You may have just inspired a new Peter Gabriel track; "Fox Pop"! "Twas a night by the tracks, and the girl with the ass, so sexy and fast, most certainly did pass gas!" Also, nothing like a slim , trim yoga booty for the win. For real though. My weakness lol.
Even though I usually vehemently disagree with what Mosh says, I'd be lying if I said I also didn't understand his position most of the time. I've argued that he comes across almost schizo/bipolar in his posts; almost on the spectrum (not in a judgmental way based on his choice of lengthy prose and articulated positions). I actually think he provides great context and balance for some of the more complacent attitudes here; a sh*t-stirrer in a good way. I have respect for Moshkito because he withstands our barrage of questioning, and he keeps plugging along, for better or worse. I can't disrespect that, even if he's a bit bonkers (which, again, I think is a net positive in the long run). I got into a little tiff with Moshkito in another thread, and yes, he can be difficult; waxing and waning (admittedly very, vert interesting) perspectives on art, etc. I think where he loses us is, where we all get lost, attempting to debate or argue the intention of the artist. This is where sh*t gets very subjective, and I think that's where this thread is unfortunately trending; infinitely reducible arguments with no closure. |
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"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam Joined: April 29 2006 Location: Atlantais Status: Offline Points: 29625 |
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Not the days when it was possible to have prog music in the top 40... Alas I fear pop music will just continue to become more boring and unadventurous. And I as I always Genesis Misunderstanding was some kind of mistake...
To answer paganinio's question - the top 40 cannot help but take a song out of context. That is the nature of the beast. What is can do is lead the smarter people to want to check out the whole album and then we can lure people to our silly cult.
Edited by Slartibartfast - August 10 2019 at 13:07 |
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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BA(Hons) English and History, 1994 with Philosophy 43 years playing music Arts based degree, relevant music experience. That's "experience" and not "opinion". Opinions are worth jack sh*t. Thanks for recommending I study something, Mosh, already done it. Incidentally, amidst all the waffle, a lot of your reply is actually agreeing with what I said, but you seem to not bother actually thinking about posts and formulating a thoughtful reply to them as it's easier to shout everyone down and insist that you're right. Even though you seem to be unsure what you're right about. God only knows. If you're convinced that the admins are "destroying prog" here, I'm quite happy to show you how to set up your own forum. |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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In reply to Prog Sothoth -
[/QUOTE] Once in minus 18 degree Celsius weather I was waiting outside for a train and saw an attractive woman wearing black tights and a short fluffy jacket talking to some bloke. Her butt was facing at an angle toward me (and yes I was occasionally glancing at it), then suddenly, due to the black background of her tights, I saw a grey puff cloud appear that looked like she suddenly sprouted what looked like a grey fox tail, then it immediately dispersed. This happened while she kept cheerfully talking to the guy, and of course he couldn't see that quick burst of gaseous release. Super cold weather can bring out the truth! So technically I could have fired a blank from a pistol at the fox tail (and gotten arrested afterwards), though the pistol would've needed to be within the actual fox tail next to her butt when fired for the blank to be shot "into" the fart. [/QUOTE]
Wonderful. ;-) ;-) ;-) |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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What ruins forums is not admins. It's more when one of two users (possibly myself included ! ;-) ) don't get banned.
Having nothing better to do with their lives, they log in and post long, rambling and tedious threads about their own opinions, which they believe to be utterly right, and then shout everyone down. "Lack of manners". It eventually makes threads utterly boring (at best) for everyone, and the offending poster doesn't realise that everyone is just ignoring them, as the forum lacks a block button. |
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chopper
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 19942 |
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Oh the irony.
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Prog Sothoth
Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 03 2011 Location: MA Status: Offline Points: 1940 |
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Nice!! I know, brings new meaning to "Trick of the Tail". 80's-90's Phil Collins version: "You and your fox tail, your aroma is what I need You and your fox tail, is the air in which I breathe" And yeah, yoga buns. My morning yoga routine doesn't veer much from sitting in my recliner drinking coffee while watching 'Yoga With Adriene' videos on YouTube.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team Joined: March 16 2007 Location: Boston Status: Offline Points: 20092 |
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God I love this place
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/ |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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I laughed my head off at that. Thanks. ;-)
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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Perhaps slightly off topic, but, in extreme cold conditions, could a fart condense solid, fall to the ground and shatter ????
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Raff
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24391 |
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What I really find funny is somebody who goes on and on about "the arts" (as if he was the only one who knew about them), but at the same time does not recognize a reference to the Futurist Manifesto - believing it is something related to contemporary politics. FYI: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifesto_of_Futurism
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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To perhaps return more to the thread.....
(1) what is this thread on about ? "Is prog...." Prog what ? Prog fans ? Prog music ? What ? Prog isn't an entity. It's a musical artform. Prog fans tend to listen to it, non prog fans occasionally dip in and are more likely to listen to a "hit". That's...... (2) because it's subjective.... music and listener and..... (3) does it actually matter ? Music is for listening to and not endlessly dissecting. Also (4) for every argument, there is a counter argument... ie. someone says well, this was "more pop music" and someone else comes up with a counter argument. It proves nothing and (5) does it need proving anyway ? |
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2826 |
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Thanks, Raff, I love it when someone mentions the Futurist Manifesto. ;-)
That's what I really do like about PA. There is a massive amount of knowledge here. If I was in a bar with a lot of you, I'm sure we'd all have a great night. ;-) The internet doesn't seem to work that way for certain people, though. Off this way, electronics to build in the garage, back in probably a few months. ;-) Edited by Davesax1965 - August 10 2019 at 09:47 |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23098 |
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The biggest problem I have with these sort of discussions is that they tend to end up in barricades and strongholds - each of them trying to herald and vindicate the type of music prefered in said camp.
A pop song (hit) can send shivers down my spine and effectively open up a door to the universe. A Day In The Life still does that. A prog piece can be dreary and completely bereft of zing - effectively conjuring up the same type of conformity most prog fans attribute to pop. I love all kinds of music as long as there’s fire and ooomphh in there. Building walls between different styles of music is like making warfare between groceries and we all remember the horrific end to the strawberry-bacon feud not too long ago. Let’s not go down that road. Music is supposed to be different like Janice once said. Edited by Guldbamsen - August 10 2019 at 10:47 |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
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HackettFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 20 2012 Location: Oklahoma Status: Offline Points: 7946 |
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I don't think this is correct. The original spark of Progressive Rock was about how inadequate and unsatisfying hit songs were. Then listeners and musicians alike discover there is more beyond that, but this doesn't falsify the motive of shaping the quality of hit material.
and later...
These are important equivocations, and they are better answers in my view than simply the idea that hit songs are what Prog was against (And also a logical problem in your accusation toward the PA Admin(s), BTW). |
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A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now)
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Nice to see you after a very long time. And I completely agree. Try telling the millions who ONLY heard ABTW or Comfortably Numb on radio or MTV that the songs don't work without the context of the album and they would heartily disagree. By the way, this argument is so antiquated in an age where streaming and youtube are the major ways in which music is listened to (while the LP is becoming a rather yuuge cottage industry again). As I said in another thread, PA is sort of in a time warp bubble where nobody talks about the elephant in the room. That without creating some viable revenue streams, the music industry is only going to survive in the form of two extremes - one, the big bad label produced pop and two, the bedroom artists who can no longer find live music venues they can afford or raise money to produce albums that nobody other than the campaign contributors will buy. It little matters now who is opposed or agreeable to what and we ought to rather celebrate all the good music we can get and cherish it.
Edited by rogerthat - August 10 2019 at 20:43 |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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To build on this post, hit song and prog aren't necessarily sworn enemies so much as serving different artistic and audience needs. When some of the prog guys began to try to write 'commercial' stuff in the late 70s or 80s, they found it more challenging than they perhaps expected it to be. Because standing out in a four minute length, by the same token, is really hard. That is also why pop is also prone to jumping the shark in desperation to grab eyeballs. But the best pop music out there is also a product of songwriting brilliance that can sometimes be beyond the grasp of prog artists who get used to working with very complicated motifs that cannot be easily assimilated. Besides, jumping the shark isn't the sole preserve of pop. What were Emerson's stunts or Gabriel's initial experiments with masks (before he started seeing costumes as a way to supplement the narrative) but a way to capture the attention of the audience.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 16040 |
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I don't think I expressed this correctly ... this line needed to be clearer and I missed it on re-reading it. "Progressive Music" did not get labeled and discussed as such until later, however, we have created a line that includes albums that kinda predated the large wave of "Progressive" materials. It was not quite against it, however, a lot of the material out there that we have called "Progressive" in the really early days, was not meant to be "Progressive" and more than likely NOT DESIGNED to be so. The perfect example is King Crimson's first album, which is a major socio/political album. Even RF has said so ... but in a thread here, way back when, many fans trashed RF, instead! What ELP had done in the early days was probably more inspired by classical music, than any ideas we have of "Progressive" ... maybe even PAAE which was late 1971. Or even worse, that Italian guy interviewing Gary Green and TELLING HIM what was "Progressive Music" and that GENTLE GIANT went away from it ... to which he said ... we didn't write anything ... we just played .... And my thoughts still are ... we're afraid of improvisation and free form ... which is the "origin" of "Progressive Music" (so to speak) compared to the nature of "songs" which is not free form or improvised, though it may have gotten its start that way!
It's not really meant to be an accusation and it is written with a bit of sarcasm, if you will. However, the truth is that many of the so-called "Collaborators" and "Admins", have a tendency to post ways to destroy the conversation and sidetrack the thread many times, also taking stuff I said and twisting it. I understand the methodology of "management", as I did manage two restaurants for a long time ... and dumping employees would have put me on the training mode a lot, and I would not be able to move forward, instead of spending money in training new folks. But, the collective, in PA, in general, and it's an observation, will post more on "hits" and "top ten" discussions than they will anything else, and the sad thing is, they don't even try to say ... I disagree ... LIKE YOU DID ( I appreciate that!) ... but instead ... it's not worth the discussion this whole thing ... because I do not see that many/some of the folks over there, will listen to someone/anyone ... saying something in here, sometimes, is the saddest thing ever ... because all you get is a "commercial" or what the Chinese used to call "Industrial" answer (Isaac Stern goes to China) ... and it is specially so when they do not want to hear/see that a comparison is showing something they wish not to hear or see. It's fear of the unknown. It's fear of new music. It's fear of something unusual that you can not define ... and it's been the history of the arts for centuries ... except in one board, where a top ten is more important than the music itself ... and discussing HITS is way more important than the music itself or worse ... than the artist himself/herself. Folks here are discussing hits they like ... not the music itself. There is a huge difference in my book! I don't even try to do that ...
Edited by moshkito - August 10 2019 at 21:57 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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