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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 08 2019 at 08:17
I believe some reviewers here at PA and other places like the ZON give out 5 star ratings too easily. Some on almost every release. I am guilty of this on occasion also. When your favorite band/artist puts out a new release you may automatically rate it higher than it should be. 

For me a 5 star release should be one that has not one skipper or filler track. All tracks must be superb, not just great, but the best ever. Desert island disc. If one owns 1000 releases I really believe only 5% (approximately 50) of those should be rated 5 stars.

A three star release should be one that is just average, not the bands best work. Or a release with several great songs followed by several bad songs. An inconsistent release. Some reviewers don't rate any release lower than a 3 and that puzzles me.

A one star release should be one that every song does not resonate with you. It could be a band outside of your comfort zone, or just a horrible release by your favorite band or artist. I don't understand reviewers not wanting to give any one star reviews. Are they trying to protect the artists feelings, or just don't want to be seen as negative? Wouldn't an honest review (good or bad) appeal to artists more than those who stroke the artists egos and rate it amazing every time?

Just wanted to get some opinions on this topic.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 08:44

According to PA guidelines, 5 star = essential, 4 star= excellent, 3 star = good, but not essential, 2 = fans/collectors, 1 = for completionists only.  I usually only use 1 star ratings for albums that are either obsolete or so bad (in performance, recording quality, etc) that you can barely listen to it.  5 stars are for those albums that are unique and influential, plus they have to be top notch.  Some may have filler material, but that determination is usually made by opinion.  Some concept albums use short tracks, or tracks that don't stand alone very well, as transition tracks, or interludes, to make the album slow more smoothly or to develop the concept, and many listeners that don't understand the "concept" concept tend to think of those tracks as filler.  Some would think that the short track "Five Percent of Nothing" from Yes "Fragile" album is filler, but in reality, it is quite complex.  Anyway, there are a few of my own opinions.  In the end, it is always open to some level of opinion when rating an album.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 08:53
I think I may have given 5 stars a bit too often, but it also depends on my attitude at the moment of writing. Not really too much anyway. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 08:55
1) We all listen more to music that we like and most feel more motivated to review the albums they love most. If somebody thinks they should listen to an album 10 times or even regularly through many years for writing a good review, this person will have a hard time to go through all these listens with an album they think it's one star. So most if not all people will rather review albums they rate highly (although a good occasional slamming may be fun).

2) I try to make an effort to "understand" an album and what it's meant to achieve, and I try to be flexible to find something good about an album. I'll be happier buying and listening to stuff I like, and finding new ways of appreciating music makes my music listening richer, so I'll make an effort to get into things and to find an angle from which I like things. Giving one star doesn't only mean I hate an album but also I didn't succeed finding something that appeals to me despite trying, for which I take some responsibility myself. I don't believe quality is an "objective" feature of an album, I think it's about the relation of the listener and the album, and I'm up for working on that relation as a listener (at least if I believe there's enough in it to be worth several attempts - but if not I may not feel up for reviewing it either, see 1). Also I'm generally a positive person who tries to appreciate the effort other people make, so I have some respect for all musicians and will not give one star lightly.
 
3) The whole is sometimes more and sometimes less than the sum of its parts. The rating is not an average over the single songs. There are some bits of Kate Bush's The Dreaming that I always fight with and that I'd probably not like that much on their own, but for me there's absolutely no doubt that it's a five star album (in fact it's among my top 5), similar In the Court of the Crimson King. But these parts are not fillers or skippers, they have their own life which may on occasion be in conflict with mine but are in communication with the rest of the album which cannot be ignored. Anyway, this song counting exercise (there are good and bad songs, five stars only good song, three stars mixed, one star only bad songs) doesn't quite work out.

4) That said I sometimes think I should write more one or two stars reviews just to even things out and make the higher ones look more worthwhile. Actually three stars look underwhelming but actually I give three stars to stuff that I think is still pretty good but for one reason or another not at 4 or 5 - sometimes because their qualities don't quite fit this site. But I don't think I rate albums too high, rather I don't put time into evaluating and reviewing stuff that I don't like enough. (Actually recently I don't have enough time for good reviews either, so it's rather a general condition...)   


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 09:31
This is why a 5 star system is pretty useless. Are any of us legitimately going to give an album we consider 90-95% perfect an 80% rating? Even a c+ album is more likely to tip the scales to a 4 star for most.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 09:48
Do you have personal favourite rating systems?
I think I discovered at some point that I can differentiate on a 10-point scale with half points (surprisingly these are 21 or 19 different grades, depending on whether I start at 0 or 1). Can't make much sense of more, feel constrained with less.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 10:01
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

I don't understand reviewers not wanting to give any one star reviews.


I usually only review albums that I own. I generally don't buy an album if I don't like it, so most of my reviews end up on the higher end of the scale. The exception has been when bands approach me to review their material and give me a copy for free. Then if I don't like it, it ends up on the low end of the scale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 10:13
I have given out a fairly large number of five stars over the 11 years and couple thousand albums I’ve rated (about 450), but I do prefer to rate and review albums that I want public attention drawn to. As Lewian said, I tend to want to give a shout out for the albums that excite me (or to express my shock/surprise at highly rated albums that I detest).

 

My 25% is certainly higher than OP’s suggestion of 5%, yet I have only ever rated one album with one star and about 50 with two stars. The reason for this, which I’ve tried to explain before, is that, as a musician with some insider perspectives to the process of studio recording, I appreciate and applaud the talents, skills, time, and resources it takes to put together and publish as album. My mantra as I’m listening to an album with the idea of writing a review is: “Could I do better?”

 

I consider myself a two star artist and have created my own correlating classification system. Usually, I come up with the conclusion that an album is “good” (better than I could pull together) or “excellent” (offering interesting twists and turns that I enjoy and appreciate) or “masterful” when it exhibits artistry and creativity in laudable quantities and levels.

 

So I ask all you raters:  Can you do the album that you’re reviewing as well or better than the artists and production team has done it? If so, then, depending on how accomplished a musician/artist you are, is the album deserving of the 4 star “Excellent” tab, the 3 star “Good, but not essential” assignation, or the 2 star “fans/collectors only”? (And, then, WHO—what artist that went through the work to produce an album of songs and art—deserves a one star rating? Could you really do it better?)

 

As I look at the list of all of the albums to which I’ve given 5 star assignations, I recognize a good number that might be more deserving of the 4 star rating, but I hate to negate the initial enthusiasm I had for an album. Also, I see some albums on the list that I gave 4 star ratings to that I might now appreciate and revere more highly. Should we all review and re-evaluate our lists from time to time? Or should an album’s appreciation remain stagnant for time immemorial? As the PA Login prompt challenges us: “Edit your old reviews & ratings”!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meltdowner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 10:23
I wish I could review here without ratings, I feel like I'm ruining the system for people who actually care about it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 10:29
Wow, there are a lot of excellent comments here.  I find I agree with most of them to one extent or another. 
 
I've always personally rated things on a system of 10, and I still basically do that, but for the purpose of PA, I do what a lot of raters seem to do, say it's a 3.5 in my head for example.  Then I think about the album overall and whether it should either round up to 4 stars or round down to 3 stars taking everything into consideration.  I also like to rate an album according to how well it expresses it's ideas or concepts, and that trait can come into consideration when rounding a rating up or down.
 
Then, something else that I have done since reviewing for PA, is that I have, in my own mind, an imaginary 6th star, where the perfect albums reside.  These are the albums that stand the test of time, so usually an album doesn't get that status in my own head until it has proven itself to me over time.  "Close to the Edge" is one of those, and I think most would agree, but then I also think Ambrosia's debut album is a 6 star, and not so many people would go along with that.
 
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 10:43
It looks like I rate about 1/3 of my ratings as 5 star but in my defense I only rate albums with 4 or 5 stars as I'm only really interested in rating albums I really like rather than everything I've given enough of a listen to to rate. If I was to go through my whole collection it would be a lot lower percentage but overall I'd still skew to 3 stars and above as I don't tend to hang onto albums I don't like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 10:44
I don't disagree that 5 stars is doled out too easily here.  But, as a few others have stated or hinted, for me a 5 star album isn't necessarily about every song being great or no tracks being filler, but rather about its greatness as a unit.  That it possesses some sort of inspiration as a cohesive entity.  It doesn't even need to be a concept album to have these traits.  It might suck you into its unique atmosphere or mood, or charm you with its stylistic versatility.

It would be difficult to rate an album with all 5 star songs as being worth less than 5 stars, but that would be the minority of albums I would give 5 stars to.  I might even think of a few albums without a single 5 star song that are still 5 star albums


Edited by kenethlevine - October 08 2019 at 11:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 11:03
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Do you have personal favourite rating systems?
I think I discovered at some point that I can differentiate on a 10-point scale with half points (surprisingly these are 21 or 19 different grades, depending on whether I start at 0 or 1). Can't make much sense of more, feel constrained with less.


MMA allows half stars. I would be likely to give 4.5 to several of my 5's on PA. Gnosis uses a 15 point system which I find unintuitive.

Ultimately a 10 point system always seems to make the most sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 11:08
The recent discussion on one-star albums compelled me to look at my ratings (I have written relatively few reviews) and I saw more single stars than I remember giving out. As to five-star ratings, I have several criteria:
 
1) The criteria found here on ProgArchives.
2) Staying power, for myself and for others as well as I can determine it.
3) Quality of the music and the performances.
4) Subjective and personal reasons. This is a point where I may inflate the rating, but I am okay with that. Something that affects me greatly is something I thing everybody should pay attention to.
 
This leads to some potential oddities. For example, my least favorite album of the PG era of Genesis is Foxtrot, yet as I said in my review, I cannot but give it five stars. I am not alone in that rating. Also, I am a little more positive than most by giving Deep Purple's Burn five stars, but that is not just due to the excellence of the album but for my own private reasons that it is the first album I ever bought. But then there is always a subjective element to reviews and ratings, even from those who are in the biz or well versed in music. In contrast, I gave the album We're Only in it for the Money one star, even though it is rated a respectable 4.11 in general.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 11:19
I'm pretty much in-line with Lewian's first three points in particular, and don't have that much to add to it.

As to a BrufordFreak point, could I make the albums as well? Well, I'm not much of a musician, and I don't think you need to be or to be music professional to critique music or share an opinion. I may not be a concert pianist, but I could hear the difference between a 3 year year old beginner pianist trying to duplicate Liszt and a concert pianist. That said, I wouldn't judge them on the same grounds, but that doesn't mean that I wouldn't consider the concert pianists performance to be objectively better. I also wouldn't judge each performance based on me being the better pianist than the beginner and worse than the concert pianist. I did put a fair amount of work into my "Nineteen-Eighty Whore", which is more of a musical, but I never did complete it.   I could as I know very good musicians, but I also feel it's not good enough (even conceptually) to ask for help or slog on with it.

I would rather keep my ratings and reviews separate. I've been more interested in reading film reviews than music reviews, and tended to favour those that didn't use rating systems. Most of my ratings at PA were done when the quick rating feature came out over a decade ago, and one will find various 5 stars for albums by bands that I was very into (say, Art Zoyd and Magma, both having various 5 star albums in my estimation). I cannot claim one masterpiece, even though of the Magma studio albums, I tend to favour Kobaia. Cos is one of my favourite bands, and I enjoy several of the bands albums equally (three being five star albums in my books), and I can say the same of many bands (that said, put a gun to my head, and I'll say Viva Boma).

Those ratings without reviews worked more as a guide to my tastes than anything else. I don't claim those to be objective, and recognise the subjective nature of musical appreciation (it is a relationship between the music and the listener). To mathematically quantify albums would not be my way, and do feel that an album is more than just the sum of its parts. When I have written reviews, then my ratings have been less generous -- when reviewing I have tended to rate albums lower than my appreciation would seem to warrant.

I have well over a thousand albums in my collection, and have only reviewed and rated albums in my collection. I like the music in my collection. When a team member, I did listen to some albums attentively that I didn't much enjoy, but I wouldn't have enjoyed putting the effort into reviewing those.

I wouldn't want to write a review without having listened to an album many times, and having lived with it for a while. I want to feel that I personally know that album well (I have a relationship with it, generally platonic). ;) If I'm interested enough to get to know an album well, then I'm finding appreciation in the album. Sometimes albums haven;t opened themselves up to me at first, but over time I grew to love them. If the music seems totally anathema to me, I'm not likely to make the effort.

Some people rate and review after only hearing an album once, often by streaming, but I would not be comfortable doing that. Some even rate and review without hearing the album in full (or at all in some extreme cases, which is violation of site policy). Nor would I be comfortable forcing myself to listen to an album that does nothing for me, let alone formally evaluating it. I would much rather review albums that I care deeply about.

On a side-note, there are films that I love that are deeply flawed from a technical standpoint, and might well be considered bad (those so bad, they're good ones). I can think of some albums that I hold the same relationship with -- I think in those cases my reviews would be more positive and joyous than my rating would seem to indicate. Those would be fun to review.

As I think it;s important to try to get to know and live with an album before reviewing it, and I would rather review in genres that I feel knowledgeable about, of course that will skew things, as I'm not a masochist, and given time I probably would find more to appreciate. The ratings don't mean much to me except as an indicator of an individual's taste. A good review shows a depth of knowledge. The reviews mean the most to me that are able to describe the music and compare it well to similar music. If one lacks familiarity with the musical idiom, then the review is not likely to be useful to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 12:39
I have never given any lp a 5 star rating...not one.
In all fairness is there an album that is that perfect ..? Really..?

I'll give 4.9....maybe 

;)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 12:40
To be able to write reviews for items you don't necessarily like, you have to enjoy writing reviews as well as enjoying the media (music, movies, books, etc.).  I can understand only writing reviews for the albums you like, but a critic enjoys writing the hows and whys of what makes something good or bad, just like Logan enjoys writing critical essays on movies, but would rather only review music he enjoys.  There is nothing wrong with that, we're all different.  I think it's important to have both on a site, but maybe there could be a distinction.??.!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 13:10
While we're at it, I don't find the "official" description of ratings terribly helpful. They're partly referring to quality ("excellent/good/poor"), partly to who should buy it ("Collectors/fans only") and partly to its status in the prog world ("essential/excellent addition to prog rock collection"). Taken literally we are not really asked how much we like an album personally, rather it is implied that there's something like an objective prog quality, i.e., if I rate an album badly, this implies that I think only completionists or fans/collectors may find it of any value. Not so! Also I always struggle to apply this to music at or beyond the fringes of prog; I may find that the quality of an album is 5 star but it surely isn't "essential prog" (as its location within prog may be very doubtful), and I may end up giving 4, or 3 to an album that is excellent but not "as addition to a prog rock collection".

In principle I agree that it is to some extent possible to distinguish between whether purely personal taste makes an album worthwhile to me, or whether there are more generalisable criteria, so it's fine that the descriptions are not just "I love it to pieces/I like it a lot/I like it/I'm at best lukewarm/I hate it"... but I think "only XXX should buy this" is rather inappropriate, and I also don't like much that on top of quality I'm also asked to take into account "progginess" and prog status for rating; that case should have been closed upon inclusion in the archives. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 13:34
Originally posted by dr wu23 dr wu23 wrote:

I have never given any lp a 5 star rating...not one.
In all fairness is there an album that is that perfect ..? Really..?

I'll give 4.9....maybe 
;)

5 stars doesn't mean perfect, it means a masterpiece of prog which are almost always imperfect, e.g. TfTO, Brainsalad, or Court.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 08 2019 at 13:48
^^^ It's partially a limitation of mine, I've both formally and informally studied film theory and film history, but am not that comfortable with music theory. I'm not totally illiterate when it come to music, I can at least read sheet music, and play a few instruments not that well (I was in youth orchestra, but didn't keep up with it). I haven't written a film review in quite a few years. I have written quite a few formal essays on film, but none on music, and I have not written many music reviews period.

I actually would quite like to write review for what is generally considered a very bad album (it;s not in PA), but I love in its own way: The Shagg's Philosophy of the World. If just rating it for enjoyment, I would give it a high score, but if I tried to be more objective? That would be hard, as I might bias it to much towards other people's expectations, and not judge it for what it is to me. I would much prefer to review films I think poor than albums as I there are more avenues and approaches that I'd feel comfortable exploring. Music is that much more abstract, I'd say, commonly.

A good review, and reasonably objective rating, requires a deep sense of understanding of the subject matter and expression. If I were willing to take the time to feel adequately familiar with the music, and similar means of expression, I'd be likely to appreciate it in various ways. While I can appreciate a certain modesty there (though it doesn't always indicate modesty as I've seen acerbic ones which say that), I don't like reviews where the reviewer makes it clear that they don't get it. I have yet to find a review of value where the person said they don't get it, and if a person doesn't "get it", the individual rating is not likely to be of value to me. I have seen various highly critical reviews that are well thought-out and nuanced, and a good case has been made for the poor rating. They have made the problems clear, and those don't just reflect on what they enjoy. There's ever a certain bias, but the more one knows, the better and more precise one may be with the criticism.

If I'm going to put the effort into writing music reviews, it will be particularly because I wish to share my appreciation for an album. Perhaps if the writing was its own reward, and I didn't mind taking the time to attentively listen to music that holds no appeal, then I would review more, shall I say, substandard releases, but unless I felt that I "got" the musical expression, and could liken it to similar music that I also "got", then I still wouldn't want to.

I have seen one star music reviews that start along the lines of:

"I don't get why anyone would like this sh**???!!! It's total crap. I've tried a few songs on UTube from this crap "genre" and they sucked as much as this crap sucks. The album starts with suck, fast-forward, it still sucks!
Don't buy this! Get Camel-Toe instead as Camel-Toe is great and sounds nothing like this! One star! I'd give it zero if I could cause it sucks that bad. P.S. It sucks!"

A review from ignorance is not good. I wouldn't want to write music reviews, or rate music, about the kinds of music I'm not into. I do think those who pay closer attention to the album, and give it multiple spins and time to sink again are much more likely to find something to appreciate, else why waste time on it when you could be listening to something you enjoy? That said, I'm all for trying to step outside of one's comfort zone, but don't be too quick in publicly criticising it. You might even grow to like it.

I don't like the descriptors for the ratings -- had some earlier topics on that.
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