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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 05 2020 at 11:13
Initially was trying to think of bands that maybe started out as proto prog but never quite made the transition to full blown prog but came very close at times or even had some full on prog tracks. Others may have started later but still never quite made it to be being a full blown prog band. This is all in my opinion of course. Here's what I came up with:

The Moody Blues
Procol Harum
Family
Styx
Ambrosia
Crack the Sky
Pavlov's Dog (they had mellotrons but mostly really song oriented)
Kate Bush (not really sure but I don't think she ever really qualified as full blown prog but ymmv and some might know more about her than I do. Based on what I have heard she's really more art rock, synth pop, art pop, alternative and maybe even post punk. Wikipedia doesn't even list her as prog rock and they often have a looser definition than I do. 
Radiohead (more experimental and not really prog although close at times maybe)
Phish (more of a jam band)
Muse (Not really true prog imo. Plus a bit too commercial and pop sounding anyway).

Who else?

Pink Floyd is debatable but I would say they were definitely prog for a good five or six years at least. Also, many "art rock"bands could fit into this category as well but I won't bother listing them all.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 06 2020 at 19:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 12:14
Well, I think it depends what you´re mean about prog. I believe there will be lots of definitions and we will ever get consensus of it. But if you´re thinking prog should always have complex structures and least part of the songs over six minutes in bands albums, then you´re right, those bands are not prog. But on the other then Krautrock is not prog at all too (well I believe many thinks so).

I haven´t ever think Kate Bush prog, although she really has had prog elements from the beginning. It´s quite amazing how she succeeded that time when prog was really out of the mode. On the other hand I hear really much same elements in P J Harvey´s music (not in her rockiest albums), but really there will not become a day she will add to the PA (I think Kate has added).

All the way it´s quite the same to me is music prog or not, I just listen music that I like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 12:30
Originally posted by Mortte Mortte wrote:

Well, I think it depends what you´re mean about prog. I believe there will be lots of definitions and we will ever get consensus of it. But if you´re thinking prog should always have complex structures and least part of the songs over six minutes in bands albums, then you´re right, those bands are not prog. But on the other then Krautrock is not prog at all too (well I believe many thinks so).

I haven´t ever think Kate Bush prog, although she really has had prog elements from the beginning. It´s quite amazing how she succeeded that time when prog was really out of the mode. On the other hand I hear really much same elements in P J Harvey´s music (not in her rockiest albums), but really there will not become a day she will add to the PA (I think Kate has added).

All the way it´s quite the same to me is music prog or not, I just listen music that I like.

I was thinking more along the lines of what is traditionally referred to as prog and not bands who are just experimental or progressive in general. Most of the stuff I listed(if not all)technically was progressive just not typical prog as it is usually defined. I'm not making judgements here or trying to imply superiority of any kind. It's just my opinion and observation. Many artists have progressive elements without being full on prog including bands who once were(ie Rush, Genesis, etc). Even though there is a lot of wiggle room and a lot of room for variation to me prog still has to follow some kind of formula. There are still certain rules. I actually don't think the songs have to be a certain length either as long as many(if not most)of those songs have the elements that make something prog. Also, there is a lot of grey area. What one person thinks is prog someone else might not. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 12:31
Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 12:32
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

Not even the PG era?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 12:57
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

Not even the PG era?

What differentiates Genesis in the PG era from the Moody Blues? The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is a rock concept album with mostly 2,3 and 4 minute songs. The same can be said of the Moody Blues' concept albums like Days of Future Past or To Our Children's Children's Children.

What differentiates a long PG Genesis song like Supper's Ready to Procol Harum's In Held Twas I? What is the difference between 5, 6 or 7 minute songs like Watcher of the Skies or the Lamia , as opposed to Whaling Stories or Repent Walpurgis or A Salty Dog? How is More Fool Me, Counting Out Time or I know What I Like in My Wardrobe more prog than A Whiter Shade of Pale or Conquistador?

How is Cuckoo Cocoon or Get 'Em Out By Friday more prog than the Have You Heard suite on the On the Threshold of a Dream album?

I guess I don't see much of a difference, except perhaps one band has longer songs on average. I don't see how one is more "progressive" than the other, particularly given the Moodys and Harum were innovators and not coming in after the fact post-1969.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:03
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

If Genesis isn't prog, then Yes, Rush, Camel, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd aren't prog either. Jesus I cant imagine even saying something like this. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:07
Pink Floyd would apply for progressive rock band even if they had only recorded the Atomn Heart Mother suite. That is as progressive as the genre ever got.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote TCat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:17
This is the problem with arguments over who is prog and who isn't.  It's the same problem with any other genre or sub-genre.  The bands that you have mentioned are considered prog in general, some to lesser degrees than others, but still prog.  A lot of times it just has to do with the opinions of the majority of a group of fans.  Just enjoy the music and stop worrying about it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:19
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

Not even the PG era?

What differentiates Genesis in the PG era from the Moody Blues? The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is a rock concept album with mostly 2,3 and 4 minute songs. The same can be said of the Moody Blues' concept albums like Days of Future Past or To Our Children's Children's Children.

What differentiates a long PG Genesis song like Supper's Ready to Procol Harum's In Held Twas I? What is the difference between 5, 6 or 7 minute songs like Watcher of the Skies or the Lamia , as opposed to Whaling Stories or Repent Walpurgis or A Salty Dog? How is More Fool Me, Counting Out Time or I know What I Like in My Wardrobe more prog than A Whiter Shade of Pale or Conquistador?

How is Cuckoo Cocoon or Get 'Em Out By Friday more prog than the Have You Heard suite on the On the Threshold of a Dream album?

I guess I don't see much of a difference, except perhaps one band has longer songs on average. I don't see how one is more "progressive" than the other, particularly given the Moodys and Harum were innovators and not coming in after the fact post-1969.

Genesis had more time changes, variation, experimentation and longer songs with more instrumental passages than those bands. If you want to make a better argument use PF not Genesis. All PF really had were long songs and long instrumental passages and not so much the time changes thing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:19
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.


If Genesis isn't prog, then Yes, Rush, Camel, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd aren't prog either. Jesus I cant imagine even saying something like this. 


Evidently, sarcasm is not your forte. I supplemented that comment with a further post.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ForestFriend Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:25
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

Not even the PG era?

What differentiates Genesis in the PG era from the Moody Blues? The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is a rock concept album with mostly 2,3 and 4 minute songs. The same can be said of the Moody Blues' concept albums like Days of Future Past or To Our Children's Children's Children.

What differentiates a long PG Genesis song like Supper's Ready to Procol Harum's In Held Twas I? What is the difference between 5, 6 or 7 minute songs like Watcher of the Skies or the Lamia , as opposed to Whaling Stories or Repent Walpurgis or A Salty Dog? How is More Fool Me, Counting Out Time or I know What I Like in My Wardrobe more prog than A Whiter Shade of Pale or Conquistador?

How is Cuckoo Cocoon or Get 'Em Out By Friday more prog than the Have You Heard suite on the On the Threshold of a Dream album?

I guess I don't see much of a difference, except perhaps one band has longer songs on average. I don't see how one is more "progressive" than the other, particularly given the Moodys and Harum were innovators and not coming in after the fact post-1969.


I will admit I'm not overly familiar with a lot of The Moody Blues or Procul Harum except the hits/more well-known songs, but what I hear in (early 70s) Genesis that I don't hear in those bands is the overall complexity of the musical arrangements. Lots of interweaving parts, complex structures, and of course, odd time signatures. There's an almost orchestral approach to the way they write and arrange their parts, rather just playing the chords like a lot of rock bands.

Are these necessarily absent from the Moody's or Procul Harum? Not really, but at least in the music of Genesis, these elements were the rule rather than the exception. If you take Selling England By The Pound for example, there are the two obviously "poppier" tunes (I Know What I Like, More Fool Me), taking up about 7 minutes of the album, while you've got 45 minutes of quite frankly, in your face, pompous, symphonic prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:33
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Initially was trying to think of bands that maybe started out as proto prog but never quite made the transition to full blown prog but came very close at times or even had some full on prog tracks. Others may have started later but still never quite made it to be being a full blown prog band. This is all in my opinion of course. Here's what I came up with:

The Moody Blues
Procol Harum
Family
Styx
Ambrosia
Crack the Sky
Pavlov's Dog (they had mellotrons but mostly really song oriented)
Kate Bush (not really sure but I don't think she ever really qualified as full blown prog but ymmv and some might know more about her than I do. Based on what I have heard she's really more art rock, synth pop, art pop, alternative and maybe even post punk. Wikipedia doesn't even list her as prog rock and they often have a looser definition than I do. 
Radiohead (more experimental and not really prog although close at times maybe)
Phish (more of a jam band)
Muse (Not really true prog imo. Plus a bit too commercial and pop sounding anyway).

Who else?

Pink Floyd is debatable but I would say they were definitely prog for a good five or six years at least. Also, many "art rock"bands could fit into this category as well but I won't bother listing them all.
Most of the bands you listed never wanted to be prog. Procol saw themselves as R&B based rockers while the Moodys saw themselves as contemporaries of the Beatles. Family saw themselves as just rockers and despised being tagged as prog. Styx saw themselves as melodic hard rockers and Radiohead saw themselves as alt rockers. 

Perhaps we place too much importance on labeling artists as prog instead of just enjoying them for what they are.


Edited by SteveG - January 05 2020 at 13:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 13:34
Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

Not even the PG era?

What differentiates Genesis in the PG era from the Moody Blues? The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is a rock concept album with mostly 2,3 and 4 minute songs. The same can be said of the Moody Blues' concept albums like Days of Future Past or To Our Children's Children's Children.

What differentiates a long PG Genesis song like Supper's Ready to Procol Harum's In Held Twas I? What is the difference between 5, 6 or 7 minute songs like Watcher of the Skies or the Lamia , as opposed to Whaling Stories or Repent Walpurgis or A Salty Dog? How is More Fool Me, Counting Out Time or I know What I Like in My Wardrobe more prog than A Whiter Shade of Pale or Conquistador?

How is Cuckoo Cocoon or Get 'Em Out By Friday more prog than the Have You Heard suite on the On the Threshold of a Dream album?

I guess I don't see much of a difference, except perhaps one band has longer songs on average. I don't see how one is more "progressive" than the other, particularly given the Moodys and Harum were innovators and not coming in after the fact post-1969.


I will admit I'm not overly familiar with a lot of The Moody Blues or Procul Harum except the hits/more well-known songs, but what I hear in (early 70s) Genesis that I don't hear in those bands is the overall complexity of the musical arrangements. Lots of interweaving parts, complex structures, and of course, odd time signatures. There's an almost orchestral approach to the way they write and arrange their parts, rather just playing the chords like a lot of rock bands.

Are these necessarily absent from the Moody's or Procul Harum? Not really, but at least in the music of Genesis, these elements were the rule rather than the exception. If you take Selling England By The Pound for example, there are the two obviously "poppier" tunes (I Know What I Like, More Fool Me), taking up about 7 minutes of the album, while you've got 45 minutes of quite frankly, in your face, pompous, symphonic prog.

Well said. SEBTP is pure prog. Just because an album has two shorter poppier tunes doesn't disqualify it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 15:03
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by ForestFriend ForestFriend wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

Not even the PG era?

What differentiates Genesis in the PG era from the Moody Blues? The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway is a rock concept album with mostly 2,3 and 4 minute songs. The same can be said of the Moody Blues' concept albums like Days of Future Past or To Our Children's Children's Children.

What differentiates a long PG Genesis song like Supper's Ready to Procol Harum's In Held Twas I? What is the difference between 5, 6 or 7 minute songs like Watcher of the Skies or the Lamia , as opposed to Whaling Stories or Repent Walpurgis or A Salty Dog? How is More Fool Me, Counting Out Time or I know What I Like in My Wardrobe more prog than A Whiter Shade of Pale or Conquistador?

How is Cuckoo Cocoon or Get 'Em Out By Friday more prog than the Have You Heard suite on the On the Threshold of a Dream album?

I guess I don't see much of a difference, except perhaps one band has longer songs on average. I don't see how one is more "progressive" than the other, particularly given the Moodys and Harum were innovators and not coming in after the fact post-1969.


I will admit I'm not overly familiar with a lot of The Moody Blues or Procul Harum except the hits/more well-known songs, but what I hear in (early 70s) Genesis that I don't hear in those bands is the overall complexity of the musical arrangements. Lots of interweaving parts, complex structures, and of course, odd time signatures. There's an almost orchestral approach to the way they write and arrange their parts, rather just playing the chords like a lot of rock bands.

Are these necessarily absent from the Moody's or Procul Harum? Not really, but at least in the music of Genesis, these elements were the rule rather than the exception. If you take Selling England By The Pound for example, there are the two obviously "poppier" tunes (I Know What I Like, More Fool Me), taking up about 7 minutes of the album, while you've got 45 minutes of quite frankly, in your face, pompous, symphonic prog.

Well said. SEBTP is pure prog. Just because an album has two shorter poppier tunes doesn't disqualify it. 

One of you hasn't really listened to the Moody Blues or Procol Harum, and the other has some stilted definition of prog that would basically eliminate half of the bands listed on PA. Here is some symphonic prog from 1969, complete with a masterful turn on the mellotron by Mike Pinder (who Robert Fripp acknowledges got him into the mellotron in the first place)...



Or how about some prog with an actual orchestra and choir in 1971 (originally recorded in studio in 1969)...


To be progressive, one would think that being on the cutting edge of rock and actually helping to invent the prog rock genre in the 1960s would account for something. Saying this or that is more prog than something else is a losing proposition.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 15:15
Saying Genesis isn't prog is the fastest way to trigger me. I need to go for a walk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 15:41
I never said the Moody Blues or Procol Harum weren't progressive. In fact I think they are both good examples of proto prog. I just don't think they followed in the same direction that the bands who were influenced by King Crimson did(or even KC themselves). They kind of just did their own thing without morphing into the same kind of prog(full blown prog)that say Yes and Genesis(and even KC) did. They didn't quite reach that level. Not that they were bad or anything but they just didn't "go there." Nothing wrong with that either. Someone earlier said they weren't really trying to be prog. Well, neither were King Crimson really. I don't think any prog band was setting out to be "prog" at the time especially since it was mostly uncharted territory. They just wanted to be different. If it makes you feel better a lot of neo prog probably isn't necessarily full blown prog either. Also, post rock, fusion and electronic progressive aren't technically even really prog. All are related enough to be on this website. Anyway, I really didn't start this thread to argue about it. We all have our own opinions. Jeez. :P

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 05 2020 at 15:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2020 at 16:29
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Saying Genesis isn't prog is the fastest way to trigger me. I need to go for a walk.

A prog snowflake? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 00:53
Garty Numan /Tubeway Army 

I recently bought Pleasure Principle and played it yesterday . The drumming is as good as in any prog band but overall it doesn't quite get there although that was never Numan's intention admittedly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 03:44
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Saying Genesis isn't prog is the fastest way to trigger me. I need to go for a walk.

A prog snowflake? LOL





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