Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Almost prog but not quite
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Almost prog but not quite
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
dougmcauliffe View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2019
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 3895 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 06:08
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Saying Genesis isn't prog is the fastest way to trigger me. I need to go for a walk.


A prog snowflake? LOL


Joking, but genesis is just a textbook prog band. It’s not a competition, but it’s clear they had a much greater impact on the genre than the moody blues or procol harum.

Many modern prog acts draw a big inspiration from or emulate genesis, can’t say the same for the other two.

Edited by dougmcauliffe - January 06 2020 at 06:10
The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20497 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 06:43
^ In hindsight it may look that way but SEBTP and The Lamb album were quite innovative back in the day.
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
dougmcauliffe View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2019
Location: US
Status: Offline
Points: 3895 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 07:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


^ In hindsight it may look that way but SEBTP and The Lamb album were quite innovative back in the day.


By saying textbook prog band I don’t mean generic if that’s how you interpreted it, i mean that as in if you think progressive rock bands, them along with yes and king crimson for example are probably the first artists to come to most people’s minds. Those albums are certainly innovative as are the 3 that preceded them and the two that followed.
The sun has left the sky...
...Now you can close your eyes
Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20497 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 07:37
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


^ In hindsight it may look that way but SEBTP and The Lamb album were quite innovative back in the day.


By saying textbook prog band I don’t mean generic if that’s how you interpreted it, i mean that as in if you think progressive rock bands, them along with yes and king crimson for example are probably the first artists to come to most people’s minds. Those albums are certainly innovative as are the 3 that preceded them and the two that followed.
Confused You lost me.
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
twosteves View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 01 2007
Location: NYC/Rhinebeck
Status: Offline
Points: 4070 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote twosteves Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 07:47
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Saying Genesis isn't prog is the fastest way to trigger me. I need to go for a walk.


I hear you! Genesis were perfect prog (Suppers Ready) and always had some prog right up to the end---of course as time went by Phil took a lot of control and added the poppy hits---thus 2 albums the Hits and the Longs---Trevor Rabin said he wanted to do this for Yes but he isn't and never was the 3 or 4 min hit maker that Genesis was---other than Supertramp and of course the Beatles no one was.
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Online
Points: 16183 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 07:54
Originally posted by twosteves twosteves wrote:

Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Saying Genesis isn't prog is the fastest way to trigger me. I need to go for a walk.


I hear you! Genesis were perfect prog (Suppers Ready) and always had some prog right up to the end---of course as time went by Phil took a lot of control and added the poppy hits---thus 2 albums the Hits and the Longs---Trevor Rabin said he wanted to do this for Yes but he isn't and never was the 3 or 4 min hit maker that Genesis was---other than Supertramp and of course the Beatles no one was.

Add ELO and the Moody Blues to that list too. Imo, the Moodies are second only to the Beatles as far as songwriting goes. Genesis were about more than just songs imo.
Back to Top
Manuel View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: March 09 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 12375 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 07:55
Originally posted by dougmcauliffe dougmcauliffe wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Sometimes Genesis can be proggy. But they throw in a lot of pop tunes. So I can't really equate them as full-blown prog.

If Genesis isn't prog, then Yes, Rush, Camel, Jethro Tull and Pink Floyd aren't prog either. Jesus I cant imagine even saying something like this. 

Maybe they cannot be considered prog, but they were/are certainly progressive, which is what really counts for me.
Back to Top
kenethlevine View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Prog-Folk Team

Joined: December 06 2006
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 8854 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 08:04
considering the Moody Blues were an acknowledged influence on ITCOCK, I'd say their influence on prog is considerable even if most prog bands didn't try to and would not have been able to emulate their melodies and harmonies.  Their early albums had a fair bit of experimentation on them but I'd agree that they remained more song oriented than most of their peers.  I don't think that means less proggy but I understand most people here do.  Lots of prog bands of the classic era were song oriented.
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Online
Points: 16183 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 08:18
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

considering the Moody Blues were an acknowledged influence on ITCOCK, I'd say their influence on prog is considerable even if most prog bands didn't try to and would not have been able to emulate their melodies and harmonies.  Their early albums had a fair bit of experimentation on them but I'd agree that they remained more song oriented than most of their peers.  I don't think that means less proggy but I understand most people here do.  Lots of prog bands of the classic era were song oriented.

Song oriented is sort of the antithesis of prog though. The point was to do something beyond just normal songs. Anyway, could you please give some examples other than the MB?


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 06 2020 at 08:18
Back to Top
kenethlevine View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Prog-Folk Team

Joined: December 06 2006
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 8854 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 09:22
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

considering the Moody Blues were an acknowledged influence on ITCOCK, I'd say their influence on prog is considerable even if most prog bands didn't try to and would not have been able to emulate their melodies and harmonies.  Their early albums had a fair bit of experimentation on them but I'd agree that they remained more song oriented than most of their peers.  I don't think that means less proggy but I understand most people here do.  Lots of prog bands of the classic era were song oriented.

Song oriented is sort of the antithesis of prog though. The point was to do something beyond just normal songs. Anyway, could you please give some examples other than the MB?

by some definitions perhaps.  Just like some argue that lots of prog folk groups aren't prog because they are too folkie and prog should be more symphonic

Lots of song oriented prog groups.  Some of these are favourites and some I can't stand, but they are song oriented and prog.  All are here in PA in a full prog genre.  Sure, many of them have done suites and very long songs but for the most part they do songs

Renaissance - granted their songs were long but their songs are still songs with verses and choruses by and large
Electric Light Orchestra
Supertramp
Strawbs
Barclay James Harvest
Alan Parsons Project
Jethro Tull (for the most part)
Anyone's Daughter (for the most part)
David Sylvian
Japan
Red Jasper
The Morrigan
Garolou
Sally Oldfield
Saga
Split Enz
Woven Hand
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Online
Points: 16183 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 10:22
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

considering the Moody Blues were an acknowledged influence on ITCOCK, I'd say their influence on prog is considerable even if most prog bands didn't try to and would not have been able to emulate their melodies and harmonies.  Their early albums had a fair bit of experimentation on them but I'd agree that they remained more song oriented than most of their peers.  I don't think that means less proggy but I understand most people here do.  Lots of prog bands of the classic era were song oriented.

Song oriented is sort of the antithesis of prog though. The point was to do something beyond just normal songs. Anyway, could you please give some examples other than the MB?

by some definitions perhaps.  Just like some argue that lots of prog folk groups aren't prog because they are too folkie and prog should be more symphonic

Lots of song oriented prog groups.  Some of these are favourites and some I can't stand, but they are song oriented and prog.  All are here in PA in a full prog genre.  Sure, many of them have done suites and very long songs but for the most part they do songs

Renaissance - granted their songs were long but their songs are still songs with verses and choruses by and large
Electric Light Orchestra
Supertramp
Strawbs
Barclay James Harvest
Alan Parsons Project
Jethro Tull (for the most part)
Anyone's Daughter (for the most part)
David Sylvian
Japan
Red Jasper
The Morrigan
Garolou
Sally Oldfield
Saga
Split Enz
Woven Hand




A band who focuses mostly on short songs in 4/4(and no time changes, etc) will never(with rare exceptions maybe) be considered full blown prog. It's not really just my definition. It's the one that most prog fans(and even non prog fans go by). If there are no definitions and guidelines then what is the point of even calling something prog in the first place?

Many of the bands you listed are art rock, some are prog folk maybe and some are bands who had some prog material but not all of it was prog. Admittedly some I'm not familiar with. Some could be labelled semi prog but that is really what art rock is. If people want to call APP or Saga full on prog then fine but even those bands did more than just short songs at times and did more adventurous things with  the music. You could even say Gentle Giant were song oriented. It's more about what they did with the songs though and what went on.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 06 2020 at 10:23
Back to Top
kenethlevine View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Prog-Folk Team

Joined: December 06 2006
Location: New England
Status: Offline
Points: 8854 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenethlevine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 10:37
I agree more about the time changes and not just being 4/4 than I do with the "song oriented" part.  Bands can have time changes and surprises even within shorter songs.  But I think attitude and approach are just as important as anything, and song oriented bands can still have a prog approach, 

All these bands I named are in full prog genres.  progarchives by definition considers anything other than proto prog and prog related to be full prog doesn't it.   It hasn't really defined who is more prog than whom.  if you are here you are prog.  And though progarchives might not have the readership and influence it had in the past, it's still the definitive site AFAIK.

As far as bands like Saga and APP doing more adventurous stuff too, that's true of most of the bands I named.  It's also true of non prog artists like Elton John and Cat Stevens.  But by and large those bands I named were song oriented, and full prog


Edited by kenethlevine - January 06 2020 at 10:39
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Online
Points: 16183 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 10:53
Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

I agree more about the time changes and not just being 4/4 than I do with the "song oriented" part.  Bands can have time changes and surprises even within shorter songs.  But I think attitude and approach are just as important as anything, and song oriented bands can still have a prog approach, 

All these bands I named are in full prog genres.  progarchives by definition considers anything other than proto prog and prog related to be full prog doesn't it.   It hasn't really defined who is more prog than whom.  if you are here you are prog.  And though progarchives might not have the readership and influence it had in the past, it's still the definitive site AFAIK.

As far as bands like Saga and APP doing more adventurous stuff too, that's true of most of the bands I named.  It's also true of non prog artists like Elton John and Cat Stevens.  But by and large those bands I named were song oriented, and full prog

You were doing good up until the last sentence. I still consider them art rock which is translated to crossover prog on here. PA considers the Moody Blues to be crossover prog also but to me they aren't full on prog. As with most on your list they seem to be semi prog at best imo(which is what art rock is(and also proto prog) so you may as well also add 10CC and Roxy Music as well as the bands on my first page). I suppose we will have to agree to disagree though. What fun would this place be if everyone agreed about everything?




Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 06 2020 at 10:59
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12681 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 13:38
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by kenethlevine kenethlevine wrote:

considering the Moody Blues were an acknowledged influence on ITCOCK, I'd say their influence on prog is considerable even if most prog bands didn't try to and would not have been able to emulate their melodies and harmonies.  Their early albums had a fair bit of experimentation on them but I'd agree that they remained more song oriented than most of their peers.  I don't think that means less proggy but I understand most people here do.  Lots of prog bands of the classic era were song oriented.

Song oriented is sort of the antithesis of prog though. The point was to do something beyond just normal songs. Anyway, could you please give some examples other than the MB?

by some definitions perhaps.  Just like some argue that lots of prog folk groups aren't prog because they are too folkie and prog should be more symphonic

Lots of song oriented prog groups.  Some of these are favourites and some I can't stand, but they are song oriented and prog.  All are here in PA in a full prog genre.  Sure, many of them have done suites and very long songs but for the most part they do songs

Renaissance - granted their songs were long but their songs are still songs with verses and choruses by and large
Electric Light Orchestra
Supertramp
Strawbs
Barclay James Harvest
Alan Parsons Project
Jethro Tull (for the most part)
Anyone's Daughter (for the most part)
David Sylvian
Japan
Red Jasper
The Morrigan
Garolou
Sally Oldfield
Saga
Split Enz
Woven Hand




A band who focuses mostly on short songs in 4/4(and no time changes, etc) will never(with rare exceptions maybe) be considered full blown prog. It's not really just my definition. It's the one that most prog fans(and even non prog fans go by). If there are no definitions and guidelines then what is the point of even calling something prog in the first place?

Many of the bands you listed are art rock, some are prog folk maybe and some are bands who had some prog material but not all of it was prog. Admittedly some I'm not familiar with. Some could be labelled semi prog but that is really what art rock is. If people want to call APP or Saga full on prog then fine but even those bands did more than just short songs at times and did more adventurous things with  the music. You could even say Gentle Giant were song oriented. It's more about what they did with the songs though and what went on.

The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway has a majority of songs written in 4/4, and a majority of songs played in 5 minutes or less (16 songs of that length, 9 of which are actually less than 3 minutes). By your definition, that is not prog. It is a concept "art rock" album.

Just saying how absurd your strict definition is. I would also suggest that Gentle Giant was, for want of a better word, more "progressive" than Genesis was, even though rarely any of their compositions stretched longer than 7 minutes. How about a 3/2 song that goes onto 9/8 (and other whacky time signatures in between), with an acoustic guitar duet that integrates madrigal, jazz and country. Not to mention the craziest three-part harmony ever attempted in rock. And this version all in less than 7 minutes....
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 14:38
How dare you? heheheheh LOL
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 14:42
You mentioned some great bands and artists BTW.  I just can't embrace the narrow tent.  Still a fun topic for discussion and derision and oh whatever the hell we want to toss into it. heheheheh
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Back to Top
Slartibartfast View Drop Down
Collaborator
Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29625 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Slartibartfast Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 14:48
OK I'm going to start with the artists you mentioned for starters.
The Moody Blues, eh their opening album has some timeless stuff and some quaint stuff which Crimson did not.
Procol Harum eh I really am not acquainted enough to comment on them definitively.
and maybe even post punk. Wikipedia doesn't even list her as prog rock and they often have a looser definition than I do. 
Radiohead here I have to draw the line with you.  Not conventionally prog but I am a big tenter.  Recommended by Steven Wilson or I would not have given them a second thought.

All of the rest, I really dunno.
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Online
Points: 16183 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 15:11
By your definition, that is not prog. It is a concept "art rock" album.


Yep. If that's the case then there's nothing wrong with that. It's still a good album.  I never said art rock or non full prog is crap. In fact I like a lot of it. I think a few albums by the Who qualify as concept art rock albums too including Tommy and Quadrophenia which are considered to be two of their best. I'm sure some on here would consider them prog albums though.
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12681 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 17:07
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

By your definition, that is not prog. It is a concept "art rock" album.


Yep. If that's the case then there's nothing wrong with that. It's still a good album.  I never said art rock or non full prog is crap. In fact I like a lot of it. I think a few albums by the Who qualify as concept art rock albums too including Tommy and Quadrophenia which are considered to be two of their best. I'm sure some on here would consider them prog albums though.

If that is the case, and you agree that Genesis is not always "textbook" prog, even when Gabriel was with the band, then I refer you to your previous comment: 

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Genesis had more time changes, variation, experimentation and longer songs with more instrumental passages than those bands. If you want to make a better argument use PF not Genesis. All PF really had were long songs and long instrumental passages and not so much the time changes thing.

Let's talk about an actual prog rock (and not "art rock") album based on your strict assertions. I direct you to Wish You Were Here, with the extended composition "Shine On You Crazy Diamond" in 9 parts split into 2 sections (total run time 26 minutes). Some parts are in 6/8, the vocal sections are in 12/8, the saxophone lead that switches from baritone to tenor sax changes from 6/8 to 12/8, there is a funeral march in 4/4, but some of the bluesier sections are in 3/4.

The other long song on the album "Welcome to the Machine" (7:31) starts in 4/4, changes to 7/4, then to 3/4, back to 7/4 and finishes in 4/4. You'll also notice each of the 5 songs on the album segue one into the other (a characteristic often favored by Genesis).

I would suggest that perhaps you don't know what you think you know, and that definitions become more fluid when you actually study the music.

For instance, did you know the great violinists Yehudi Menhuhin and Stéphane Grappelli were both in studio while Floyd was recording, and Grappelli actually recorded a violin solo for the song "Wish You Were Here"? Grappelli's part was eventually recorded out, but we have tape of it, fortunately:
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: October 02 2016
Location: Philly burbs
Status: Online
Points: 16183 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2020 at 17:16
If that is the case, and you agree that Genesis is not always "textbook" prog, even when Gabriel was with the band, then I refer you to your previous comment: 


What are you a prosecutor or something? You really like to try to rub people's noses in this stuff don't you? Even if Lamb is an art rock album that is one album from that era. The other stuff from the PG era (not counting the debut)is pure prog. Besides they did pop albums later with PC that were even less prog than lamb. Plus lamb still had it's share of proggy and even prog tracks.

As for Pink Floyd I do consider them prog(including wish you were here). 


I would suggest that perhaps you don't know what you think you know, and that definitions become more fluid when you actually study the music.

We all know different things. I'm sure I know things about music that you don't know. How about we stop turning this into some sort of prog pissing contest?






Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - January 06 2020 at 17:31
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.168 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.