Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Help me understand krautrock and canterbury
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Help me understand krautrock and canterbury

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Message
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 03:51
Don't let genre names distract you--   Krautrock is just prog from Germany, and as far as Canterbury goes, you have to find the prog elements that interest you.   National Health would be a good place to start.


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13958
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 06:06
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Don't let genre names distract you--   Krautrock is just prog from Germany,

I thought so, too, but looking more into the classifications, actually that's not true. I checked this when looking for things to recommend. There are many prog bands from Germany that are classified elsewhere, Eloy, Grobschnitt, Novalis, Hoelderlin, Anyone's Daughter, Tangerine Dream, just to name a few. And although I didn't contribute to any of these classifications, I think there are good reasons for this. "Kraut", I'd say, stands for freedom, experimentation, and improvisation in the tradition of the late 60s/early 70s music communes of which Amon Düül is the prime example. There is a lot of free form in the earlier works. Later it's bands that picked up Kraut elements like the rhythm orientation of Can. There is also some minimalism to be found as in Neu, Cluster and La Duesseldorf, anyway much of this music is less "composed" and more organically developed than other prog genres (although some such as Amon Düül II got into more conventional/"composed" song formats later). The genre was meant to have a proper musical meaning beyond "being German" and I think it does. (And given the list of favourites in the first posting, I can well understand why these bands are more difficult for the poster to get into than, say, Eloy or Anyone's Daughter.)  
Back to Top
Raff View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24391
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 06:49
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Don't let genre names distract you--   Krautrock is just prog from Germany, and as far as Canterbury goes, you have to find the prog elements that interest you.   National Health would be a good place to start.




Sorry, David, I don't agree at allWink. "True" Krautrock is characterized by a very high level of experimentation, which in some cases goes beyond even what you would find labeled as RIO/Avant. Though I cannot call myself an expert, I have been involved in the latest installment of the Romantic Warriors documentary series - the first part of a trilogy dedicated to Krautrock - and that has given me a much deeper insight into this "subgenre". In fact, some Krautrock bands have more in common with post-punk/new wave that traditional prog. I would say that Krautrock is the embodiment of the "progressive vs prog" debate.

As to "understanding" any subgenre, it is something that may happen, or it may not. There are some subgenres I don't really care for, and forcing myself to listen to some highly praised albums has not produced any result. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, and it is perfectly OK not to "get" something that others do.


Edited by Raff - January 18 2020 at 06:53
Back to Top
Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 09 2019
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 9938
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 08:11
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

As to "understanding" any subgenre, it is something that may happen, or it may not. There are some subgenres I don't really care for, and forcing myself to listen to some highly praised albums has not produced any result. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, and it is perfectly OK not to "get" something that others do.
Agree. I said the same thing, although I may not have phrased it as well, and Lewian and others shat all over it. I can only conclude that they like to belittle me but not others.
Back to Top
Lewian View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 13958
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 08:24
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

As to "understanding" any subgenre, it is something that may happen, or it may not. There are some subgenres I don't really care for, and forcing myself to listen to some highly praised albums has not produced any result. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, and it is perfectly OK not to "get" something that others do.
Agree. I said the same thing, although I may not have phrased it as well, and Lewian and others shat all over it. I can only conclude that they like to belittle me but not others.
 
Actually I agree that everybody has the right to their own taste and opinion, and nobody needs to get into any subgenre, hell, it is even fine to hate all of prog and not listen to any of it anymore ever if anybody decides so. However if somebody is curious enough to ask, it doesn't make sense to tell them that they shouldn't even ask because trying to get into something won't work anyway (for which there are many, many counterexamples).

And no, it's not personal. I actually like controversial exchange, however you don't seem to share that. Which is fair enough but really, no need to feel chased by me.
Back to Top
moshkito View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 16052
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 08:41
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

...
Sorry, David, I don't agree at allWink. "True" Krautrock is characterized by a very high level of experimentation, which in some cases goes beyond even what you would find labeled as RIO/Avant. 
...

I have been, for many years trying to explain this from a theater/film perspective, and have had a really hard time getting through for some folks to have a better idea of what an "experimentation" really is ... and one of the accidental postings brought out, yet another example for me ... that I do not think it was meant to.

Titles ... usually a "title" tells you what the piece is about, and often the piece/song has lyrics around that theme. This is a problem for "experimentation" and "improvisation", since you do not want to create a situation where someone (an audience let's say) thinks about this word or that word, and the whole thing was nowhere near that word when created.

A true improvisation, will have many of the musicians going in many directions, and things may or may not come together ... and this is the hard part in naming anything ... and my take, specially in the situation with Robert Wyatt and Soft Machine, was that the title of his book, was about the fact that the music in SM at the time, had stopped being "different every time" and had become more "controlled" and "composed" ... which makes it less of an improvisation altogether.

In this last sense, the numbering of albums by number makes sense ... no need to number an album with a word, 1) when they did not have one in the first place, and 2) the putting together of the whole thing was about being together at one place in time, and this worked ... and then comes the big elephant ... are we going to be able to play that on stage?

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

...
Though I cannot call myself an expert, I have been involved in the latest installment of the Romantic Warriors documentary series - the first part of a trilogy dedicated to Krautrock - and that has given me a much deeper insight into this "subgenre". In fact, some Krautrock bands have more in common with post-punk/new wave that traditional prog. I would say that Krautrock is the embodiment of the "progressive vs prog" debate.
...

The book FUTURE DAYS goes over this really well, and it kind of shows you how different each area was, from each other in regards to not only the music, but in its own development.

My take is that one forgets, how important this kind of experimental process was in other disciplines of art, something that too many folks in this board are scared to discuss, or perhaps they are not as aware of theater, film, literature and other arts as I have been lucky to be.

I always ask ... do you really think there is as much of a difference between Klaus Kinski and what Damo Suzuki did for CAN ... and the answer is no ... we immediately went after it, and Werner Herzog could not keep the camera away from the loon ... that would not stop acting when the scene was "over", which was very visible sometimes, when (I think) it is very clear that the whole thing was extended because it was simply too good, and some of it could be cut later if it needed to. 

Lastly, originally, on the CAN website, Holger had stated that TAGO MAGO was put together off 20 some hours of stuff and that most of it was put together by chance and whatever other idea ... to put something together that was not a WESTERNIZED FORM of music ... and this wording shows up more than once within the "krautrock" ideas and concept ... and the same thing happened in literature when you had someone like Peter Handke (and others) writing "word plays" ... where it was a literal 52 pickup with no order whatsoever, no theme that anyone can pick up and a total dismantling of the idea/concept of composition ... something that drives folks here totally crazy ... why/now could anyone be so stupid and crazy to even consider that? A piece of something with no concepts, no ideas, no story, no characters, no lyrics that you and I could define ... the absolute worst thoughts and ideas ... and guess what Damo was doing? A version of the same thing ... guess what Klaus was doing? A version of the same thing thinly disguised as a characterization that never ended, something that we only hear a handful of actors EVER try and work with!

My take is that there is a lot more to it all, than we're comfortable describing ... to the point where at least one troll will say that all this is trivial and drivel ... and no one has the guts to call them on their lack of apprehension and appreciation for an art form!


Edited by moshkito - January 18 2020 at 08:46
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
Back to Top
Guldbamsen View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Retired Admin

Joined: January 22 2009
Location: Magic Theatre
Status: Offline
Points: 23098
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guldbamsen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 09:16
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

As to "understanding" any subgenre, it is something that may happen, or it may not. There are some subgenres I don't really care for, and forcing myself to listen to some highly praised albums has not produced any result. Everyone is entitled to their own tastes, and it is perfectly OK not to "get" something that others do.
Agree. I said the same thing, although I may not have phrased it as well, and Lewian and others shat all over it. I can only conclude that they like to belittle me but not others.

Except you didn’t say the same thing Had Raff written the same post as you did, you can bet your sweet behind that she would have received the same replies. Yes replies. No one here is attacking you..people have disagreed with you.
I’m sorry you feel this way, but you’re going to find it arduous and downright hostile on any internet forum if you keep seeing attacks instead of discussions.
This is music man. We all got our own experiences with this marvelous art form, so no wonder we differ when it comes to our opinions of the very same
“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”

- Douglas Adams
Back to Top
micky View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: October 02 2005
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 46827
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote micky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 17:08
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

I would say that Krautrock is the embodiment of the "progressive vs prog" debate.



great post... and agree but let me take that a bit further and another reason why Krautrock, though adopted by prog fan (that big umbrella holding several very different beasts that Jacob spoke of yeqrs ago), is really different from prog. 

it isn't just the embodiment of progressive v prog.. it is the embodiment of intellectual v. emotional.  At its root Krautrock could be called.... anti intellectual.. more primal... thus its strong roots in the beats.. the rhythms.


Edited by micky - January 18 2020 at 17:09
The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 17:32
Originally posted by Guldbamsen Guldbamsen wrote:

Except you didn’t say the same thing Had Raff written the same post as you did, you can bet your sweet behind that she would have received the same replies. Yes replies. No one here is attacking you..people have disagreed with you.
I’m sorry you feel this way, but you’re going to find it arduous and downright hostile on any internet forum if you keep seeing attacks instead of discussions.
This is music man. We all got our own experiences with this marvelous art form, so no wonder we differ when it comes to our opinions of the very same

Internet discussion can indeed be a full-contact sport.   


"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
The Dark Elf View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 12609
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 18:09
Krautrock is so hard to understand...because the instrumentals are all in German.
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Back to Top
Mortte View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: November 11 2016
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 5533
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mortte Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2020 at 23:35
^LOL...and in vocals there are so "terrible accent".
Back to Top
Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Offline
Points: 34371
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2020 at 14:42
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Don't let genre names distract you--   Krautrock is just prog from Germany, and as far as Canterbury goes, you have to find the prog elements that interest you.   National Health would be a good place to start.


I just reviewed National Health's first album today. Smile
 
My all-time favourite Canterbury Scene album is "Space Shanty" by Khan, featuring Steve Hillage on guitar.
Back to Top
Atavachron View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 64238
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2020 at 15:04
^ Space Shanty was gonna be my next suggestion
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
Back to Top
Ozric_Gnome View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie
Avatar

Joined: October 14 2019
Location: Virginia
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ozric_Gnome Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2020 at 12:19
Thank you guys for the suggestions, I never expected to get so manyBig smile

I'm gonna start off listening to Tago Mago, IV, Phallus Dei, In the land of Gray and Pink, Fitter Stoke Has a Bath, and To the Highest Bidder

I believe my problem with the genres is honestly just my attention spanLOL For awhile I find it quite enjoyable until I get lost and zone out. I'm only sixteen and a frequent drug user so I tend to get dazed and confused

Edit: I will also be listening to Of Queues and Cures


Edited by Ozric_Gnome - January 23 2020 at 12:24
Back to Top
Psychedelic Paul View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 16 2019
Location: Nottingham, U.K
Status: Offline
Points: 34371
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2020 at 12:54
Caravan's In the land of Gray and Pink is probably the most easily approachable music out of all of the Canterbury Scene albums.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down



This page was generated in 0.125 seconds.
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.