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Saga vs Triumph

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Poll Question: Which band do you prefer?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
11 [42.31%]
6 [23.08%]
4 [15.38%]
2 [7.69%]
3 [11.54%]
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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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    Posted: February 08 2020 at 11:51
Next to Rush these are probably the two most well known prog/prog related bands from Canada. I almost wasn't going to do it because I wasn't sure if Triumph were in here but they are under prog related so that's good enough for me. Wink 

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 15 2020 at 14:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 12:17
For what I know, both are great, so I voted both.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gr8dane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 12:18
Saga easy, but I do like me some Triumph.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 13:06
Ok, just to be clear. As a full fledged born in the snow (ok, in May but it was still cold) Let me make this perfectly clear. Triumph is about as prog as Loverboy, Streetheart or Heli. All good rock bands but NOT prog. I mean come on...really

THAT being said, Saga is a proggy pop band. I've seen them live in a bar in London ON back in thier early years. They put on a great show.

So Saga by a mile.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 13:30
Saga
I do like Triumph, although it's been a while since I gave them a listen.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 14:06
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Ok, just to be clear. As a full fledged born in the snow (ok, in May but it was still cold) Let me make this perfectly clear. Triumph is about as prog as Loverboy, Streetheart or Heli. All good rock bands but NOT prog. I mean come on...really

THAT being said, Saga is a proggy pop band. I've seen them live in a bar in London ON back in thier early years. They put on a great show.

So Saga by a mile.

Triumph are still proggy enough to be prog related on here while the others are not. While I'm not an expert on Triumph I do hear prog elements in their music. Over all maybe about as proggish as Zebra(if anyone on here knows who they were). No, they aren't prog but not everything by Rush was prog either. Or Kansas or whoever. Some might argue Styx weren't prog. I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the prog element. Anyway, fwiw, wikipedia lists them as hard rock, heavy metal and progressive rock(so that's good enough for me and even more than I would say; not even sure I would call them metal either. Lol.).


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 08 2020 at 14:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 14:09
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Ok, just to be clear. As a full fledged born in the snow (ok, in May but it was still cold) Let me make this perfectly clear. Triumph is about as prog as Loverboy, Streetheart or Heli. All good rock bands but NOT prog. I mean come on...really

THAT being said, Saga is a proggy pop band. I've seen them live in a bar in London ON back in thier early years. They put on a great show.

So Saga by a mile.

Triumph are still proggy enough to be prog related on here while the others are not. While I'm not an expert on Triumph I do hear prog elements in their music. Over all maybe about as proggish as Zebra(if anyone on here knows who they were).


well, this poll should have been in the proto/prog-related lounge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 14:12
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Ok, just to be clear. As a full fledged born in the snow (ok, in May but it was still cold) Let me make this perfectly clear. Triumph is about as prog as Loverboy, Streetheart or Heli. All good rock bands but NOT prog. I mean come on...really

THAT being said, Saga is a proggy pop band. I've seen them live in a bar in London ON back in thier early years. They put on a great show.

So Saga by a mile.

Triumph are still proggy enough to be prog related on here while the others are not. While I'm not an expert on Triumph I do hear prog elements in their music. Over all maybe about as proggish as Zebra(if anyone on here knows who they were).


well, this poll should have been in the proto/prog-related lounge.

Not too late for someone to move it(I don't have the authority though). I didn't even know they have polls there. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 14:14
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Ok, just to be clear. As a full fledged born in the snow (ok, in May but it was still cold) Let me make this perfectly clear. Triumph is about as prog as Loverboy, Streetheart or Heli. All good rock bands but NOT prog. I mean come on...really

THAT being said, Saga is a proggy pop band. I've seen them live in a bar in London ON back in thier early years. They put on a great show.

So Saga by a mile.

Triumph are still proggy enough to be prog related on here while the others are not. While I'm not an expert on Triumph I do hear prog elements in their music. Over all maybe about as proggish as Zebra(if anyone on here knows who they were).


well, this poll should have been in the proto/prog-related lounge.

Not too late for someone to move it(I don't have the authority though). I didn't even know they have polls there. 


Prog-related/proto, general music also.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 15:07
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Ok, just to be clear. As a full fledged born in the snow (ok, in May but it was still cold) Let me make this perfectly clear. Triumph is about as prog as Loverboy, Streetheart or Heli. All good rock bands but NOT prog. I mean come on...really

THAT being said, Saga is a proggy pop band. I've seen them live in a bar in London ON back in thier early years. They put on a great show.

So Saga by a mile.

Triumph are still proggy enough to be prog related on here while the others are not. While I'm not an expert on Triumph I do hear prog elements in their music. Over all maybe about as proggish as Zebra(if anyone on here knows who they were).


well, this poll should have been in the proto/prog-related lounge.

Not too late for someone to move it(I don't have the authority though). I didn't even know they have polls there. 


Prog-related/proto, general music also.




One of these bands(Saga)is "regular" prog though so I don't see what the big deal is. That said, if a moderator wants to move it I don't have a problem with that.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 08 2020 at 15:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progmatic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 15:23
I wish everyone would just have fun with polls/forums and not harp on semantics of where something should or should not be listed or one person's unhappiness with another's method of lisstening to music, etc. There's plenty to argue about just sticking to the topic.
For me, Triumph and Saga are cheesy AOL bands with arena rock mentalilties and an occasional prog flourish. There was so little good mainstream music that those little proggy riffs sounded great back then. Now it sounds like drek. The same with Asia, Foreigner and Styx, who I didn't like even when they came out. (Asia and Foreigner sound so cookie-cutter I want to plug my ears and Styx is like fingernails on a chalkboard).
But everyone's tastes differ, so if you like these groups, enjoy them. It doesn't mean I think you're an a--hole. We can share opinions without hate or ridicule. At least I think we can.
My buddy is into prog hardcore but he likes ... Barry Manilow. I don't know how or why, but even with that, we're still friends. Imagine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 15:38
No need to move the poll, I'm fine with it here and while I can move polls to the Prog-Related/ Proto-Prog forum, poll making is disabled for that forum which was done for a few reasons which I won't get into now. While technically I can make polls in that forum, and I have moved various polls there, I still think I would have made his poll in this forum as 50% of the two acts listed is included in a Prog category. If Triumph weren't included in Related then I would suggest that General Music Discussions would be best.

By the way, I tend not to be into the AOR/ Arena Rock side of things, but I do rather like Saga's debut which I would call a sort of Prog AOR. I owned the silver record version of Triumph's Rock and Roll Machine, by the way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 15:41
Amen(as far as the nitpicking about prog labels go). 

I'm not really that into putting music into boxes though. I like other kinds of rock(including arena rock) so a little bit of  prog in otherwise mainstream sounding rock never really bothered me. It's not an all or nothing thing for me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 16:05
Saga. Worlds Apart has got many spins throughout the years.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 16:13
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Amen(as far as the nitpicking about prog labels go). 

I'm not really that into putting music into boxes though. I like other kinds of rock(including arena rock) so a little bit of  prog in otherwise mainstream sounding rock never really bothered me. It's not an all or nothing thing for me. 


I quite like putting things in boxes, but I tend not to put things in a single box or too tidy a box, more like fuzzy, porous multiverse cubes. I find genre descriptors useful for discovering and describing music. a problem with boxes can be that people box themselves in too much.

Originally posted by progmatic progmatic wrote:

I wish everyone would just have fun with polls/forums and not harp on semantics of where something should or should not be listed or one person's unhappiness with another's method of lisstening to music, etc. There's plenty to argue about just sticking to the topic.


I share similar sentiments, even though I've felt compelled to explain, say best-placement many times. There are general guidelines, but it can be very inexact. I love good well-reasoned arguments with some depth and breadth, especially when the parties aren't at cross-purposes and seem to be trying to listen to each other rather than win points, but bickering and nit-picking can be tedious indeed. Sometimes a certain negativity pervades this forum, and the worst can be in cases where people are extremely negative about others perceived negativity. To each his or her own tastes and I appreciate exploring different perspectives. It's good to try to keep an open mind, just not so open that one's brains fall out as the saying goes. But I digress.

Edited by Logan - February 08 2020 at 16:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 17:11
Well, the prog label has helped me find a lot of great music I probably otherwise wouldn't have found but I'm not caught up on labels to the point where I think something has to fit into a label perfectly for me to enjoy it. For example, I might be really into Italian prog and I know that a band who is labelled as Italian prog will have a certain sound so I know what to expect. However, that doesn't mean it is necessarily a good Italian prog album and the same thing with any other subgenre. There's no guarantee you will like it. A lot of times it comes down to production, musicianship, recording quality and vocals(as much as I hate to say it vocals aren't always a strong point for many prog bands for whatever reason) and over all songwriting and melodies. While there are some kinds of music I'm not that crazy about(most rap and country for example)I tend to enjoy most forms of rock(even commercial and mainstream stuff).

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 08 2020 at 17:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 18:01
^ the Prog label is an interesting one for me, partially because there is such a breadth of music under the Prog umbrella, and it doesn't have clear boundaries, and that Prog rather by definition doesn't fit tidy boxes. It can be seen as a progression from rock music (breaking established conventions of rock), non-generic non-rock canonical, and it can bring any style of music into it. It's so diverse. Some Prog is more progressive in this sense than others, and Prog is a rather nebulous label often.

Prog or progressive works best as label for me when other labels are also applied, which is reason why I like the multi-genre labeling system of places like Rate Your Music. I'm more likely to enjoy something labeled Progressive- Psychedelic-Jazz-Folk than Progressive-AOR-Country-Cock Rock, but I may like both or neither or prefer the Cock Rock one. Even if the labeling is sound, and of course I gravitate to certain styles more than others, it's not an absolute given. There's a lot of Prog that I don't like, and a huge amount of non-Prog that I do like. I tend to be an Avant Prog kind of guy, amongst other things, but that hardly means that I would like everything labelled that way in PA. The category itself is diverse. The musicianship, vocals (mostly I have listened to instrumental music as classical music was my first love), production may all be of high quality yet it does not musically resonate with me. What I sometimes find sad sometimes is the people's expectations seems to ruin music overmuch sometimes. For instance, a band or filmmaker tries a new approach and it gets panned for being different, whereas perhaps various critics would have been kinder to it had they not come in with the wrong expectations. I like labels, as inexact as they often are, as general guides for discovery and for describing music to others, but it doesn't tell you the whole story. I like to take albums and other arts on their own terms, but comparisons are only natural. People complain when they all sound the same, when they sound different.... This amorphous boxes tangent might have been a good discussion to have in David's boxes thread.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 18:34
Triumph without a doubt, and by a mile

Both bands were local in Toronto, along with Rush, Max Webster and FM, but Saga was the one who had the least success... All those bands played high-schools on dfriday night, except that I don't remember ever seeing Saga on that circuit.
Sure some of the Saga tracks on their first four albums were OK, but Saga was viewed as a pop band (even a synth-pop band), whereas Triumph were dirty nitty-gritty rock

Overall, I couldn't come up with a CD-r compilation of Saga (their whole career- even if I haven't heard anything in two or three decades), as there are only five or six tracks I like (Don't be late on SK being my fave). Saga was always prog-lite or not prog at all back in the pre-90's - don't know since!! ll that's interesting nowadays to me are the superb sci-fi artworks of Twilight and Knights

Triumph, on the other hand was sometimes close to prog, and if I like most of their first three album with some tremendous stuff (Blinding Light Show, The City, the two-part NY City Streets, etc...) but I can still find stuff until their fifth, though I realize that I'd probably cringe Pinch if their were not a teen nostalgia thing.

I really disliked their stuff after Allied Forces (81), when they became a Nuke spandex-wearing Censored AOR-Hair Metallish Pigcaricature of themselves... Which is unfortunately how they are remembered by most. Cry






Edited by Sean Trane - February 09 2020 at 03:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enchant X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 18:40
OK I know Triumph aren't really prog but I just like them more, I've got plenty of time for Triumph and I really don't mind Saga but they just don't provide for me the same quality of entertainment.  I voted Triumph. Triumph are fun, Rik Emmett is one of the greatest guitarists I know of. Tongue

Edited by Enchant X - February 08 2020 at 18:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2020 at 18:41
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Ok, just to be clear. As a full fledged born in the snow (ok, in May but it was still cold) Let me make this perfectly clear. Triumph is about as prog as Loverboy, Streetheart or Heli. All good rock bands but NOT prog. I mean come on...really

THAT being said, Saga is a proggy pop band. I've seen them live in a bar in London ON back in thier early years. They put on a great show.

So Saga by a mile.







Surely that beats flatly Saga in the prog dept. TongueWink

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BTW, I really liked Streetheart's first two album, and they sometimes approached proggy stuff, but too light to figure here


Edited by Sean Trane - February 08 2020 at 18:42
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