Description of prog rock |
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Author | ||||
I prophesy disaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 31 2017 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4591 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
Posted: February 11 2020 at 02:48 |
|||
|
||||
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
|
||||
Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
Seriously, the description in the OP is fine. It's great that you sought the perspectives of others, and of course some were bound to take issue with some of what you had put but it's been that way since the birth of progressive rock. Trying to apply a definition, is a circular and thankless pursuit. Some will inevitably over intellectualise the process, losing sight of the fact that at the end of the day it's just sophisticated rock music, designed for entertainment.
|
||||
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
||||
M27Barney
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 09 2006 Location: Swinton M27 Status: Offline Points: 3136 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
It is Chicken, it is eggs, it is in between your legs...
|
||||
Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
Yes, that's a good description, I concur. |
||||
Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
|
||||
Frenetic Zetetic
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 09 2017 Location: Now Status: Offline Points: 9233 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
Personally, I've always described prog rock as "Greasy machinery sliding on rails; young minds and bodies on steel spokes IMPALED!!!"
|
||||
"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021 |
||||
ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
All in all, a very pithy and apt summation of a phenomenon that cannot be easily condensed down into just a few short paragraphs. Kudos to you John The only point I might take issue with is that the lyrics of Prog became the poetry of the 70's*. Sadly, the lyrics in the vast majority of the genre are gauche hippy f*ckwittery that disintegrates under even the flimsiest of scrutiny. * (Lou Reed, Bob Dylan, Scott Walker, Loudon Wainwight III, David Bowie, John Cale, Randy Newman, Ray Davies (the list goes on) |
||||
richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 26108 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
this is fine for me although the white on black style really hurts my eyes!
|
||||
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
You need top watch the TOM DOWD special for its historical effect in America ... it will give you a very important view of America and its musical development and then you can put Bob Dylan in the story with his electricity. That will define America, more or less, since there is no "classical music" to speak of here as most music has been the pop thing, or the movie thing ... based on the "star" thing. Europe, and England, are far more different ... and closer to a lot of Classical Music, and its "progressive" thing was, in essence, started by kids/youngsters that were classically minded ... and the influence is clear and obvious, even with The Nice and Moody Blues ... but instead it has become "oblivious"! Next we are going to hear that GMartin was not an influence ... where did he come from? Classical Music! Without a good understanding of the history of the processes, getting a correct, and proper feel for what we love in music, the "progressive rock" of the old days, our understanding of it all will be nothing but kids chewing bubble gum and smoking their cigarettes to prove they are adults! Another great example ... Italy was almost exclusively classical and symphonic, and you could easily say, that it was a continuation of their musical history ... now played by kids with electrical instruments! And the big "trio" is only in effect as a side bit to add flavor, and more or less say ... I can do that, too! It was very similar in Spain and France. Germany has a very different story to tell and the first "krautrock" special from the BBC series has it all in the words of Edgar Froese. If you HEAR that, and think on it for a bit, all the comments, from the CAN grouping and others about them not wanting a westernized form of music, all of a sudden explains their works in a lot of the arts, not only music, but film, theater and other arts! The problem being, of course, that "progressive music" in most websites, completely ignore the arts that they came from and they think that Peter Gabriel invented wine! When it was a historical tradition in Europe for many many many years ... and PG's version was cheap, albeit very English!
Edited by moshkito - February 10 2020 at 20:11 |
||||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
johncologon
Forum Newbie Joined: February 08 2020 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Well, I've done the easy bit (i.e. fixed the spelling of Emerson - apologies to Keith and anyone else I might have offended). Regarding the other comments, I'm not really sure exactly what to do. I've added Days of Future Past in early on, as it preceded most of the other things I've talked about, and made some other minor tweaks - not sure if I've made it better or worse - hopefully better?!
Regarding the music of different countries, I live in Australia, where aside from having a little home grown music of our own, we have generally been flooded with music from the US and the UK in equal measure, so that from my perspective they are all merged in together and I don't make much distinction between the two. If that is reflected in what I've written, I apologise, but not having lived in either place means that I no doubt miss the local nuances. If anyone would like to make specific suggestions for addressing this, please do (but they kind of need to be specific or they may go right over my head, not having the local knowledge). Thanks again, everyone! If you want to look at my revisions, here's the link again: |
||||
LAM-SGC
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 26 2018 Location: se Status: Offline Points: 1542 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
UK prog rock was akin to New Wave in the late 70s, loads of different musical styles but no single unifying style, it was more of a musical approach and attitude rather than an actual genre, which must be obvious to everyone as no two people can agree on what prog is or what bands are prog.
Edited by LAM-SGC - February 10 2020 at 13:54 |
||||
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I just find the whole thing sad ... I think the write up is more of an attempt at putting together 2 or 3 websites information into one piece of work. Sadly, it is something that does not recognize that in different countries there was no music, and that players were too stupid to not know what rock/jazz/bs/whatevah was in the first place. Specially when you consider the incredible history of music in Germany, Austria, Italy, France and Spain ... which one could say ... is far superior, within a historic context. You know what it feels like? The constant ... no music elsewhere is valid! I'm sorry ... that is wrong!
|
||||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
twosteves
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 01 2007 Location: NYC/Rhinebeck Status: Offline Points: 4070 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
probably would have mentioned Moodies Days of future past--
and Emerson is spelled wrong.
|
||||
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
I recommend creating a list (not on the write up!), at home, of the things you mention ... the order of things is not quite in order and things like The Moody Blues probably deserve more credit than Pretty Things, but there is a significant difference between one thing and another ... Classical music was a far greater influence in "progressive rock" than the better known "rock/blues/jazz" elements, and sometimes we think of these because it is convenient and not a reality. However, it is impossible to ignore the trio ... because they were all around as well, and in many ways closer to the musicians than classical music ... but that would not explain the English wave of music that was symphonic all over with string arrangements by the dozen, going back to the early 60's ... and in America, since the movie studios were pushing their stars, in the background was all strings and orchestra. (This hurt a lot of music distribution by popular groups ... but it could not be ignored when things started selling big ... and the final nail on the movie studios was Woodstock ... in terms of music ownership!) It started changing big time around the time Henry Mancini came around, where the tunes were mostly centered and augmented with really clever and well defined rock instruments, and became the venue for a lot of soundtracks ... with the exception of folks like Maurice Jarre, who became more symphonic than ever and won Oscars for it. I am not sure that what you are writing is totally correct ... it maybe more specific to ENGLAND than the rest of the world, that didn't exist ... and I will remind you that in America the experimental, progressive music, had been growing since the Bob Dylan days when he went electric ... and helped define/add a new expression to a lot of music. AND IN THIS CASE, it was much more defined by rock/blues/jazz than it was defined by classical music ... in England the reverse could be said to be true ... I would recommend a separation of both things ... other wise calling it "progressive rock" just because of England, is ... IN MY BOOK ... a very harsh disrespect to the word "progressive" and the rest of the world that also had a lot of music ... that is being CONTINUALLY DENIED! It makes it sound like France, Italy, Germany and Spain never had music ... and their examples show far more creative design and desire ... that should not be ignored.
|
||||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
johncologon
Forum Newbie Joined: February 08 2020 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Hi Everyone,
I've updated what I wrote to try and take account of some of the points you all make. If you'd like to check it out and see what you think, feel free! Thanks again, John
|
||||
Snicolette
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 5972 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
|
||||
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
|
||||
JD
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 07 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 18371 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
Let's not forget The Nice - Ars Vita Longa Brevis - Symphony For Group And Orchestra (1968) Granted it's not a "Full" concept / rock opera album, but it is half way there. |
||||
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
|
||||
Snicolette
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 5972 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
Edited by Snicolette - February 09 2020 at 09:10 |
||||
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
|
||||
AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 16143 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
What I said doesn't contradict what you said. So in the end as far as full albums The Pretty Things wins but for individual tracks the Who wins. Why would he admit it when he had his own song(a quick one) to be inspired by?
Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - February 09 2020 at 08:43 |
||||
Snicolette
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 02 2018 Location: OR Status: Offline Points: 5972 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|||
|
||||
"Into every rain, a little life must fall." ~Tom Rapp
|
||||
moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16146 |
Post Options
Thanks(1)
|
|||
Hi,
A little more than I intended, but this is honest ... hopefully this helps, and I think that some folks might bring out their horns and kazoos against some of the wording.
I think this is incorrect, when considering how many of the "progressive" folks had classical music studies and inspiration. Other than the USA, which was ruled by a lot of pop music (and still is), I would say that classical music had more influence than we like to give it credit. However, I am finding that there is also a lot of jazz influence, not so much in the "style", but in the idea that instruments could stretch their parts for a certain expression that fits the whole thing. For example, I don't think that Jaco Pastorius is copying any blues or jazz, and I would almost say that his playing and presentation was much more classically oriented than it was pop or jazz oriented, although some folks could easily say that he played like a jazz player, which I'm not sure is incorrect, in the end, but his additions to the music ... are way more classically minded and influenced than they are anything having to do with rock music at any time.
It was inevitable ... specially when in America it was all about sales, and in England, about the 2 magazines (someone said over 200K strong circulation!!!!), that pretty much defined things, and since the only thing that the BBC played (other than John Peel on the odd months!), was mostly pop related and rarely said a whole lot about it. In America, there was not a magazine that helped the music ... no longer was "Rolling Stone" a magazine that helped music ... right away it became the typical star magazine, that only did the really big this and that ... and in fact, most of its reviewer for any "external" and "different" music were total idiots to the point of saying things like "sounded like washing machine music" ... and that pretty much showed the GONZO styled bullpucky that came out of RS. I think in England, there was a serious attempt to make the music better and extend it past the pop music area, and you could easily say that Beatles were the best example, and others quickly followed. Of note here is The Moody Blues and their album "Days of Future Passed", was, for all intents and purposes almost strictly classical ... with pop over it ... and it was something that almost no rock band EVER mastered properly beyond sounding stupid and just pop music with an orchestra until you heard CARAVAN and the NEW SINFONIA which included pieces of music created specially for the orchestra and they played with the band really well (there were others, this is not the only one!) ... and of course, because it is such a beautiful mix worthy of attention it is one album that "progressive" music folks do not like! My take is, and I am pretty much the same age as many of these folks when they came up, is that my generation (thank you WHO), wanted to do a lot more than just a pop song, and PT calling the work "a rock opera", was really strong and something that a lot of rock/pop music fans at the time laughed at and they went back to their bubble gum music, and those folks that appreciated the story and how it was presented, even if it was a new "concept" in opera design (just songs! -- I am not sure than an opera is designed around songs!), it was better than a lot of the garbage in the radio dial that we were told was selling and were number 3 or number 4 on the chart ... Lastly ... remember that in America the first companies to market music, ALSO WERE OWNED by the movie studios, thus a lot of music (specially black music) had problems with distribution since only the movie studios were able to sell records in so many places across the country ... which is a problem for many other bands ... and then one day ... this all go busted ... but you could see this coming (TOM DOWD documentary is a MUST for you!) ... and while I am not sure that "Progressive Rock" is the difference ... there were a lot of different things already around ... it made one thing clear that we continually forget ... MUSIC HAS BEEN PROGRESSIVE FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS ... and the term used on some rock music is a bit weird and off kilter, and in my estimation lacks musical knowledge, but I will accept that is my view. Sadly, if there is one group that has a gross distaste for "different" musics, it is the "progressive rock" folks ... and classical music is one of these things ... remember the most important thing ... "progressive rock" invented sliced bread! Edited by moshkito - February 09 2020 at 07:27 |
||||
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
||||
Post Reply | Page 12> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |