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No Platforming?

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Poll Question: Do you agree with it?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
3 [20.00%]
5 [33.33%]
0 [0.00%]
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7 [46.67%]
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handwrist View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handwrist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 04:04
Not really.
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SteveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 04:04
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Whatever happened to "I hate what you say but I defend your right to say it"?

I wouldn't expect a nazi to defend anything except your right to say yes sir.

Let me restate my post with emphasis added: What ever happed to "I hate what you say but I defend your right  to say it"?
 
In Nazi Germany, citizens had no rights. No one could speak unless it was party approved propaganda and forget about any other personal liberties or rights like due process or a fair trial.
 
You brought up the Nazi's twice so far but you miss the irony of your statements. Is this what happens when someone is in a safe zone?
I agree with what you say about citizens under nazi rule having no rights. What was the ironic part you refer to?
Nazi's took away free speech. You're against free speech of Nazis. Seems ironic to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 04:06
Originally posted by handwrist handwrist wrote:

Not really.
That's because you can only imagine what it's like and not really experience it. If you lived in a police state, your views would be different.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handwrist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 04:29
Restrictions on free speech is not the same as a police state - arguably it's part of it, but not even close to the whole of it.

I never said I would like to live in a police state.

But if they just didn't allow me to say certain things, and left me alone to do my stuff then I'd be alright.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 04:43
Originally posted by handwrist handwrist wrote:

Restrictions on free speech is not the same as a police state - arguably it's part of it, but not even close to the whole of it.

I never said I would like to live in a police state.

But if they just didn't allow me to say certain things, and left me alone to do my stuff then I'd be alright.
What makes you think they would they would let do what you like to do? So much is under censorship. Music, in it's creative endeavors or just passive listening, is usually considered subversive because it entails thinking on your own.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote handwrist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 05:07
I agree it's a difficult balance to achieve.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 06:14
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Whatever happened to "I hate what you say but I defend your right to say it"?

I wouldn't expect a nazi to defend anything except your right to say yes sir.

Let me restate my post with emphasis added: What ever happed to "I hate what you say but I defend your right  to say it"?
 
In Nazi Germany, citizens had no rights. No one could speak unless it was party approved propaganda and forget about any other personal liberties or rights like due process or a fair trial.
 
You brought up the Nazi's twice so far but you miss the irony of your statements. Is this what happens when someone is in a safe zone?
I agree with what you say about citizens under nazi rule having no rights. What was the ironic part you refer to?
Nazi's took away free speech. You're against free speech of Nazis. Seems ironic to me.
I never said that, show me the quote where I said I wanted to curtail anyone's speech.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:04
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Whatever happened to "I hate what you say but I defend your right to say it"?

I wouldn't expect a nazi to defend anything except your right to say yes sir.

Let me restate my post with emphasis added: What ever happed to "I hate what you say but I defend your right  to say it"?
 
In Nazi Germany, citizens had no rights. No one could speak unless it was party approved propaganda and forget about any other personal liberties or rights like due process or a fair trial.
 
You brought up the Nazi's twice so far but you miss the irony of your statements. Is this what happens when someone is in a safe zone?
I agree with what you say about citizens under nazi rule having no rights. What was the ironic part you refer to?
Nazi's took away free speech. You're against free speech of Nazis. Seems ironic to me.
I never said that, show me the quote where I said I wanted to curtail anyone's speech.
You inferred it. And if you only want to restrict the inflammatory aspects of Nazi speak, then that would entail virtually all they say.

Edited by SteveG - March 04 2020 at 07:23
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:33
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by handwrist handwrist wrote:

I think the whole problem of free speech is that people can't shut up.
Wouldn't it be sad if you weren't allowed to complain about free speech?

That would be a "trump'ism"?
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:35
I did not infer curtailing speech for anyone. Since my point was not clear the first time, let me reiterate.

For some people, myself included, free speech for nazis, or anyone for that matter, is a lofty ideal and is not clouded by any personal trials or history.

For others, such as my wife who is Jewish, free speech for nazis includes some very dark history in which nazi rhetoric led to death for members of her family. Not just death, but humiliation, torture, destruction of property and an attempt to wipe out an entire group of people.

My point being that I was illustrating two very different perspectives on free speech. I do not know if my wife wants to curtail speech by nazis, I'll let her speak for herself.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:36
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

[QUOTE=handwrist] I think the whole problem of free speech is that people can't shut up.

That would be a "trump'ism"?
Clap Way to go, mosh!

Edited by SteveG - March 04 2020 at 07:36
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:38
Originally posted by handwrist handwrist wrote:

Restrictions on free speech is not the same as a police state - arguably it's part of it, but not even close to the whole of it.

I never said I would like to live in a police state.

But if they just didn't allow me to say certain things, and left me alone to do my stuff then I'd be alright.

Hi,

I think your view is ... lacking ... the history in Europe in the 20th Century, was the same in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany and many other places ... even the pen is not allowed ... if you consider that my dad's film reviews of many American films were censored and cut up silly, so the review looks bad and stupid ... and if you don't believe me, there is a book published with both reviews and translated into at least 10 languages!

The pen, or being left alone, was ... not the answer ... and if you read Luis Bunuel's book, about the time and place and what happened in Spain, and how so many of his friends were murdered ... you might have taken a different thought and idea of how things are ... and if you think the "you're fired" generation is any different in hurting people's lives and putting them out on the streets ... well ... that's your choice, isn't it? That's your definition of democracy, right?


Edited by moshkito - March 04 2020 at 07:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:39
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I did not infer curtailing speech for anyone. Since my point was not clear the first time, let me reiterate.

For some people, myself included, free speech for nazis, or anyone for that matter, is a lofty ideal and is not clouded by any personal trials or history.

For others, such as my wife who is Jewish, free speech for nazis includes some very dark history in which nazi rhetoric led to death for members of her family. Not just death, but humiliation, torture, destruction of property and an attempt to wipe out an entire group of people.

My point being that I was illustrating two very different perspectives on free speech. I do not know if my wife wants to curtail speech by nazis, I'll let her speak for herself.
If they are clouded by trials and history, is that a reason to criticize it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:45
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I did not infer curtailing speech for anyone. Since my point was not clear the first time, let me reiterate.

For some people, myself included, free speech for nazis, or anyone for that matter, is a lofty ideal and is not clouded by any personal trials or history.

For others, such as my wife who is Jewish, free speech for nazis includes some very dark history in which nazi rhetoric led to death for members of her family. Not just death, but humiliation, torture, destruction of property and an attempt to wipe out an entire group of people.

My point being that I was illustrating two very different perspectives on free speech. I do not know if my wife wants to curtail speech by nazis, I'll let her speak for herself.

If they are clouded by trials and history, is that a reason to criticize it?
Who is the 'they' you are referring to?
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 07:48
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

I did not infer curtailing speech for anyone. Since my point was not clear the first time, let me reiterate.

For some people, myself included, free speech for nazis, or anyone for that matter, is a lofty ideal and is not clouded by any personal trials or history.

For others, such as my wife who is Jewish, free speech for nazis includes some very dark history in which nazi rhetoric led to death for members of her family. Not just death, but humiliation, torture, destruction of property and an attempt to wipe out an entire group of people.

My point being that I was illustrating two very different perspectives on free speech. I do not know if my wife wants to curtail speech by nazis, I'll let her speak for herself.

If they are clouded by trials and history, is that a reason to criticize it?
Who is the 'they' you are referring to?
Now I'm not being clear. If free speech is clouded by past trials and history, shouldn't those past speakers be criticized for what they said, not that they had the right to say it?

Edited by SteveG - March 04 2020 at 07:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 08:02
^ Well of course.
I have no particular opinion on any of this, I'm just pointing out that nazi rhetoric is much more of a concern to some than others.
From my own experiences, I can not fathom how a survivor of a nazi death campaign would view nazi rhetoric.

Edited by Easy Money - March 04 2020 at 08:03
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 08:20
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

^ Well of course.
I have no particular opinion on any of this, I'm just pointing out that nazi rhetoric is much more of a concern to some than others.
From my own experiences, I can not fathom how a survivor of a nazi death campaign would view nazi rhetoric.
Well, to go off on an aside, there are memoirs from many survivors. The best, imo, being from Victor Frankel in his book "Man's Search For Meaning". If you ever have a desire to see what it was like, this one is very good and actually has a message of hope that others don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 09:45
^ Thanks.
Help the victims of the russian invasion:
http://www.jazzmusicarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28523&PID=130446&title=various-ways-you-can-help-ukraine#130446
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LAM-SGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 10:26
I think Islam needs to be controlled more. It is a dangerous sect as far as I am concerned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 04 2020 at 15:16
No, albeit with a plethora of caveats. The freedom of speech, in which I grew up, is under siege. Everyone should have the right to say what he thinks, in political correct terms or not. On the other hand, many media which practise no platforming, give platforms to ideas that are either insane or evil and therefore should not be given way to. A system that cannot defend itself against threats from within is doomed.

Edited by someone_else - March 04 2020 at 15:16
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