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Rush vs KC: Which is responsible for prog metal?

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Poll Question: Which is responsible for prog metal?
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    Posted: August 01 2020 at 10:11
It's been asked many times, but which is more to blame?*
I'm going KC... metal was already a genre by the time Rush got there... but what say you??


*Sorry if the way I say "to blame" and "responsible" makes it sound like I think prog metal is bad and something you don't want to blamed for or associated with. I don't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dougmcauliffe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 10:30
Hmmmm, King Crimson probably made prog metal first, but prog metal as we know it sounds much closer to rush. If we take Images and Words as the Court of prog metal, based on listening i'd say they owe more to Rush than King Crimson and every prog metal band is influenced by DT so we'll say Rush.

Edited by dougmcauliffe - August 01 2020 at 10:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 10:47
King Crimson's LTIA, Starless and Bible Black, and Red predate most of Rush's catalog. You would also have to consider Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin before Rush regarding Prog metal influences.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 11:14
KC and many others did it first, and in some cases perfected certain versions of it (looking at you Red), but Rush codified it and made it a viable career path for future artists. Basically 2112 cemented the reality that progressive rock could be fully metallic and metal could be fully progressive. Prior songs like Anthem and Bastille Day had hinted at that, and the next few albums further confirmed this revelation with Cygnus X-1. As others have said, no Rush = no Dream Theater, but I wouldn't be surprised if no Rush meant no Iron Maiden, no Queensryche, or no Fates Warning as well (especially Iron Maiden, lose Bastille Day and that precedent for historically accurate galloping prog metal is no where to be found).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 12:36
The question is "Which [band] is responsible?"

And the answer is clearly Rush.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:24
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

King Crimson's LTIA, Starless and Bible Black, and Red predate most of Rush's catalog. You would also have to consider Black Sabbath and Led Zeppelin before Rush regarding Prog metal influences.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:33
A strong case could be made for Deep Purple as well.  Jon Lord brought ample classical chops to their music, and although they aren't usually pigeon-holed as "metal," they did pioneer the sound long before Rush. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:38
For extreme prog metal, KC all the way, especially LTIA.

In general - I'd still say KC over Rush for prog metal.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:44
I'll have to think about this. There's no doubt that King Crimson had heavy moments with some that could be called metallish or proto metal but over all I'm not sure they were full on proto prog metal the way Rush was. There seemed to be too many different things going on in KC's music and Island and Lizard weren't really even heavy at all(at least not in the hard rock/metal sense) imo. If Uriah Heep was an option I might go for them but maybe the person who created this poll isn't familiar with them.

Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - August 01 2020 at 14:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 14:50
Neither was responsible for Progmetal.   Heavy prog is not progmetal nor did it significantly contribute to it.   Hard rock that progressed had been around for years and was a gradual development--  Blue Cheer through UFO through Sabbath through Priest through Maiden through Voivod.   In fact heavy progressive rock itself may have come from progressive rock

from Phillip S. Walker on Warhorse's Red Sea album --

"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath".


Crimson and Rush?   Yeeaaahhh I don't think so.





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 15:47
^None of the bands referenced produced something like 2112.

Maiden finally "flirted" with a quasi-proggy sound on select tracks on Powerslave, Somewhere in Time and Seventh Son of a Seventh Son.

UFO? Priest? Blue Cheer? Come on...it isn't about who made heavy progressive rock first. It's about who defined it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VianaProghead Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 16:21
None of them, really. The pioneers were Queensryche, Fates Warning and Dream Theater. But, before them there were many other bands, especially Deep Purple. But, of course, we cannot deny the strong influence of Rush and King Crimson especially due to "Red" and "Relayer" of Yes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 16:22
Of these two easily Rush. It's not a crown or trophy just answering your question. I remember early KC being discussed in rock mags back in the mid 70s......I don't think metal word was used, but more psychedelic or art rock. Rush was described as simply hard rock, which is more akin to roots of metal.

What gave Rush that metal moniker in the mid-late 70's was they were considered one of the loudest concerts around, it was deafening. There were no horns or strings in Rush music early on......it was in your face guitar, bass and drums.
I have the Rush tour history book, and it has hundreds of reviewer snippets and the common theme is hard rock, metal and loud. After about 3-5yrs the progressive references were more common.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 16:24
I don;t think either are responsible for prog metal but due simply to popularity I would say Rush influenced more bands to go in that direction.

Edited by dr wu23 - August 01 2020 at 16:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 21:54
EDIT: Never mind: phone/mobile ate/deleted my big long edited post.


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - August 02 2020 at 01:28

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 01 2020 at 22:15
Originally posted by VianaProghead VianaProghead wrote:

None of them, really. The pioneers were Queensryche, Fates Warning and Dream Theater. But, before them there were many other bands, especially Deep Purple. But, of course, we cannot deny the strong influence of Rush and King Crimson especially due to "Red" and "Relayer" of Yes.

Jeez, why does everyone forget Watchtower?Confused Their first album from 1985 was more complex and "progressive" then what Queensryche or Fates Warning were doing at the time.

But this is about the bands who influenced the first wave of prog metal not the first true prog metal bands themselves. For that it's Rush.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - August 01 2020 at 22:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote friso Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2020 at 00:35
I'd rather bet on bands like Judas Priest and early Iron Maiden.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2020 at 01:23
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by VianaProghead VianaProghead wrote:

None of them, really. The pioneers were Queensryche, Fates Warning and Dream Theater. But, before them there were many other bands, especially Deep Purple. But, of course, we cannot deny the strong influence of Rush and King Crimson especially due to "Red" and "Relayer" of Yes.

Jeez, why does everyone forget Watchtower?Confused Their first album from 1985 was more complex and "progressive" then what Queensryche or Fates Warning were doing at the time.

But this is about the bands who influenced the first wave of prog metal not the first true prog metal bands themselves. For that it's Rush.

Watchtower is classic, and I'd agree with you here! My angle and experience is from tech/extreme prog metal (I was personally involved with several bands, recordings, tours, etc.). I always argue bands like Watchtower set the tone for later tech/extreme prog metal bands like Death, Atheist, Cynic, etc. King Crimson set the stage for tech/extreme prog metal bands like Gorguts and (most obvious to my ears) Behold...The Artcopus.

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Neither was responsible for Progmetal.   Heavy prog is not progmetal nor did it significantly contribute to it.   Hard rock that progressed had been around for years and was a gradual development--  Blue Cheer through UFO through Sabbath through Priest through Maiden through Voivod.   In fact heavy progressive rock itself may have come from progressive rock  

from Phillip S. Walker on Warhorse's Red Sea album --

"...Heavy Rock as a style grew out of Progressive Rock sometime in the early 1970s. The trend setters were Deep Purple and Black Sabbath".


Crimson and Rush?   Yeeaaahhh I don't think so.
^None of the bands referenced produced something like 2112.

Maiden finally "flirted" with a quasi-proggy sound on select tracks on PowerslaveSomewhere in Time andSeventh Son of a Seventh Son.

UFO? Priest? Blue Cheer? Come on...it isn't about who made heavy progressive rock first. It's about who defined it.

I also agree with verslibre here - and I was also under the impression that this thread wasn't about who made heavy prog, but whom helped define it into what it would eventually become.


Edited by Frenetic Zetetic - August 02 2020 at 01:27

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Enchant X Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2020 at 02:12
I think King Crimson probably raised the bar for prog metal but when it comes to Rush for some reason I've always regarded "A farewell to kings' as the first true prog metal album, sure caress of steel and 2112 opened the door a little more for AFTK to really shine, progressively speaking ...it started there for me. Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 02 2020 at 02:25
Rush more than KC. 
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