Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Music Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Prog musicians juggling music career and work?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Prog musicians juggling music career and work?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 5678>
Author
Message
Easy Money View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: August 11 2007
Location: Memphis
Status: Offline
Points: 9673
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 11 2021 at 16:04
I've been making my living in music for about 30 years now. It used to be a combination of gigs and lesson teaching, now its all lesson teaching. Playing gigs can be fun, but its a slow way to make money when you factor in traveling and moving equipment. Covid killed all of my band's gigs and I don't know if I want to go back to doing that anyway at this point.

Due to covid, there has been a big upsurge of folks taking lessons via Zoom and that has worked really well for me. These days I teach lessons for people in Texas, Chicago, Baltimore, NYC and all over the country.
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2021 at 03:18
I actually did say this, more than once, for a couple of years on this site. 

If the fans don't value music, musicians will keep on playing. But not for them. They'll just get together in little groups and play amongst themselves. Or do collaborative stuff over the internet. 

Since there's no commercial outlet any more, musicians will stop bothering putting the effort in to chasing smoke. 

Now, some "experts" on this site like Mosh will say "so they're not true musicians" and berate all of us who have just given up in the face of insurmountable odds. Yeah, well, musicians don't exist in a vacuum. You can argue that true musicians keep playing for true fans. It's a two way process. And the process is bust. 

For years, I've monitored stats on my website and it goes like this. Free music is hoovered up. Look at the free music thread here, it's absolutely dead. The idea behind free music is you do a giveaway and fans have the courtesy to pay for some of your other stuff. They don't. The free tracks and albums are snaffled up. The pay for stuff is untouched. And that includes most PA members. I've seen people protest that they buy music, then see them go on the Bandcamp site I have, download the free stuff and use the rest as a free radio station. 

I had two of my own friends tell me that they'd had an evening together drinking wine and listening to one of my albums which they really liked. Did they buy it ? No. Didn't even occur to them. 

Music is now seen as being free. There is no such thing as a free lunch. It's like a relationship, well, it is a relationship. There's give and take, but in the case of the "fans", it's all take and no give. People used to support bands, they don't any more. It's impossible to tour, it's impossible to release CD's if you're specialised, it's impossible to find cheap gig venues, so the only option is to give up being kicked by everyone and just play amongst yourselves, if you're a musician. 

And that is the reality. Tough titty, "fans". Told you so. 

Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2021 at 03:19
I now await gibberish replies from Mosh, who is actually the main reason for me leaving this site. I'm back visiting and because it's a boring day at work. Doing the day job, as 99.9% of all musicians are. 

In the real world. 

The argument also goes that "musicians have to diversify, learn sales and marketing skills and sell themselves". 

That's my day job, sales and marketing. 25 years experience. I can tell you now that trying to sell and market specialised music to people who fundamentally don't want to pay for it is a complete fool's errand. 

Edited by Davesax1965 - October 12 2021 at 03:23

Back to Top
SteveG View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 19371
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2021 at 05:36
^ And that's the bottom line. In the digital download world, there is no longer a supply and demand system in the music business. But I must say, leaving site because of mosh is surprising. I kind of view him as furniture. 
This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Online
Points: 19028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 12 2021 at 07:16
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:


I had two of my own friends tell me that they'd had an evening together drinking wine and listening to one of my albums which they really liked. Did they buy it ? No. Didn't even occur to them. 


Sadly you've hit the nail on the head there. File sharing, illegal free MP3 sites, Spotify etc have all served to devalue the worth of music to people. The same with a lot of software, people have got used to downloading for free so the idea of paying for it is weird to them. It's sad and I don't know what the answer is.
Back to Top
rogerthat View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer


Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9852
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rogerthat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 13 2021 at 18:27
Wilson wrote the epitaph a long time ago and was dead right about this, sadly:

"One of the wonders of the world is going down/It's going down/I know
 It's one of the blunders of the world that no-one cares/No-one cares enough"
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 07:31
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ And that's the bottom line. In the digital download world, there is no longer a supply and demand system in the music business. But I must say, leaving site because of mosh is surprising. I kind of view him as furniture. 


Well, it was mainly the ad hominem attacks and digs. It's a pity you can't block or throw people off the site, but I got quite sick of him saying exactly what he wanted, even if it was socially unacceptable. 

Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 07:34
I see that now Covid is beginning to fade into the background, ticket prices are going up at venues. We were going to go to a gig in early January but the prices were just eye watering. 

So there's another effect of not paying for music. The few bands left who can afford to tour can charge through the nose for it. Of course, part of this is down to greedy music venues, but if you can only put one show on on a Saturday, you put on the one which makes you the most money. 

So it's a cycle of rip offs at all levels, to be honest. 

Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Online
Points: 19028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 07:39
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ And that's the bottom line. In the digital download world, there is no longer a supply and demand system in the music business. But I must say, leaving site because of mosh is surprising. I kind of view him as furniture. 


Well, it was mainly the ad hominem attacks and digs. It's a pity you can't block or throw people off the site, but I got quite sick of him saying exactly what he wanted, even if it was socially unacceptable. 

I've found the best way to deal with him is to ignore his posts. Most of them are long, rambling and complete b*ll*cks anyway.
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 07:40
Another thing which grabs me. The reason why music is dying on it's feet is that there are not as many quality musicians coming through. 

Now, at this stage, all the young whippersnappers on the site will tell me I'm wrong, but, er, sorry, I've been a musician for over 45 years and I do actually remember what the standards of music used to be like and how many musicians there were in the 70's.

Of course, there are many more distractions today but we have a generation who are convinced that someone else should play music for them and, say, learning guitar is something someone else does. The few who do actually learn an instrument seem to think that learning a three chord trick of shouting gibberish and spit into a microphone is sufficient to make them famous. 

So there's been a dilution of talent as well. There's still a lot out there, but music is not the holy grail it used to be and we live in a generation of instant gratification. No one is interested in mastering an instrument, which is the basis behind progressive rock. Prog rock won't make you rich or famous. Tell me about it. So less and less youthpersons are bothering to put the hours in.

All in all, not having venues or revenues is pretty bad. But not having competent musicians is the death knell. 



Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 07:42
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^ And that's the bottom line. In the digital download world, there is no longer a supply and demand system in the music business. But I must say, leaving site because of mosh is surprising. I kind of view him as furniture. 


Well, it was mainly the ad hominem attacks and digs. It's a pity you can't block or throw people off the site, but I got quite sick of him saying exactly what he wanted, even if it was socially unacceptable. 

I've found the best way to deal with him is to ignore his posts. Most of them are long, rambling and complete b*ll*cks anyway.


All of them. ;-) 

"Hi
<complete unconnected rant>"
<ignores all contrary opinion, even if it's from more qualified people>

 - and I am too much of a gentleman to say what I really think of that kind of attitude here. 

Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 07:43
I think the point when he was telling me all about modular synths when I'd spent four years building one from scratch was possibly one of the more blood pressure inducing ones I've had in recent years. 

He'd got a free VST or something which conferred expert status on him. 

I just know some of the top synth designers in the world. So that's me told. 

Edited by Davesax1965 - October 14 2021 at 07:44

Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 08:21
Just went over to the "free music downloads" sticky here on PA to see what was happening. 

Here's a quote from a PA member.
"I am looking for a legal way to get Harbour of Tears by Camel for free. It is nowhere on Youtube save for Watching for the Bobbins and a few others. It is not on Spotify, but if I pirate it at the Pirates Bay, then I feel that I will not get caught, because Camel is fairly obscure save for us(the progheads) where it is mainstream."

Here's my answer.

"Pay for it, there's a legal way". 

So there you have it. You might note that there are one or two people still giving music away for free but the thread is essentially static. (I was last on it on 24th May 2020 giving some music away, it's one page back. It's effectively been dead for a year.)

So do you all have an adequate answer why music is dying ? 

Yep. It's the fans. Or lack of them. 

Should I say "fans" instead ? 

And that includes a lot of PA members, as my website stats show. So stop whining and start supporting, whilst you still have some music left. 


Edited by Davesax1965 - October 14 2021 at 08:31

Back to Top
chopper View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 13 2005
Location: Essex, UK
Status: Online
Points: 19028
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 14 2021 at 08:44
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Just went over to the "free music downloads" sticky here on PA to see what was happening. 

Here's a quote from a PA member.
"I am looking for a legal way to get Harbour of Tears by Camel for free. It is nowhere on Youtube save for Watching for the Bobbins and a few others. It is not on Spotify, but if I pirate it at the Pirates Bay, then I feel that I will not get caught, because Camel is fairly obscure save for us(the progheads) where it is mainstream."
 

that is just unbelieveable.
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2021 at 05:22
It's endemic, Chopper - it's just that there's one person here stupid enough to admit it. 

Needless to say I edited my original reply to remove the word "thief". 

Back to Top
Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: July 09 2019
Location: Kansas City
Status: Offline
Points: 6317
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2021 at 07:03
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

Another thing which grabs me. The reason why music is dying on it's feet is that there are not as many quality musicians coming through. 

Now, at this stage, all the young whippersnappers on the site will tell me I'm wrong, but, er, sorry, I've been a musician for over 45 years and I do actually remember what the standards of music used to be like and how many musicians there were in the 70's.

Of course, there are many more distractions today but we have a generation who are convinced that someone else should play music for them and, say, learning guitar is something someone else does. The few who do actually learn an instrument seem to think that learning a three chord trick of shouting gibberish and spit into a microphone is sufficient to make them famous. 

So there's been a dilution of talent as well. There's still a lot out there, but music is not the holy grail it used to be and we live in a generation of instant gratification. No one is interested in mastering an instrument, which is the basis behind progressive rock. Prog rock won't make you rich or famous. Tell me about it. So less and less youthpersons are bothering to put the hours in.

All in all, not having venues or revenues is pretty bad. But not having competent musicians is the death knell. 
Disagree with this and I'm an older dinosaur than you. If you think the standards of musicians today are less than in the 70's you're not looking hard enough.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - October 15 2021 at 07:04
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 15 2021 at 08:09
How long have you been playing ? ;-)

45 years in my case, so this is knowledge and not opinion. 

The general standard has fallen through the floor. There are a few good musicians around but they're the stand out rarity. 

Some local "sax expert " said wow, Bb, Eb, that's an unusual key signature. 

Jesus. I was going to invite him around for a jam but I tend to play in harmonic minors. 

One of my mates gave up on having a bassist in his band as the last five he had just looked at their shoes if he started deviating from the tab the bassist had learnt. 

About 1-2% of musicians can improvise nowadays as well. 

Edited by Davesax1965 - October 15 2021 at 08:19

Back to Top
cstack3 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar
VIP Member

Joined: July 20 2009
Location: Tucson, AZ USA
Status: Offline
Points: 5751
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cstack3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 16 2021 at 00:12
Originally posted by Davesax1965 Davesax1965 wrote:

How long have you been playing ? ;-)

45 years in my case, so this is knowledge and not opinion. 

The general standard has fallen through the floor. There are a few good musicians around but they're the stand out rarity. 

Some local "sax expert " said wow, Bb, Eb, that's an unusual key signature. 

Jesus. I was going to invite him around for a jam but I tend to play in harmonic minors. 

One of my mates gave up on having a bassist in his band as the last five he had just looked at their shoes if he started deviating from the tab the bassist had learnt. 

About 1-2% of musicians can improvise nowadays as well. 

Pity we don't live around the block from one another!  Arizona USA is a bit of a swim, with my gear on my back.

UK is a big place, where you be?  
I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
Back to Top
Davesax1965 View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: May 23 2013
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 2746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 18 2021 at 09:25
Hi Cstack3, I'm about 22 miles south of Manchester. ;-)

Better start swimming now. ;-)

Back to Top
Frenetic Zetetic View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: December 09 2017
Location: Now
Status: Offline
Points: 9213
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 19 2021 at 01:48
It's getting harder and harder to find quality musicians, let alone locally.

"I am so prog, I listen to concept albums on shuffle." -KMac2021
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 5678>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.348 seconds.

Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.