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Cristi View Drop Down
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Originally posted by TheLionOfPrague TheLionOfPrague wrote:


PD: Toto are AOR, like Foreigner, Boston, Journey, etc. If that's prog then everything is prog.

Toto are more than AOR than those bands you mentioned. What I like about them is how effortlessly they blend genres. I don't want to start any trouble, but if they were on PA under prog-related, I would not be upset at all. 

Journey is here on PA because of their early work, pre-Perry. 

It's funny how we discuss Toto and Journey on a NIN thread. LOL


Edited by Cristi - September 24 2020 at 00:37
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I think ToTo comes up because anybody whos been to a ToTo concert knows they are very progressive. Not so much based on their studio albums more so based on their live performance. Wink
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Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

I have no clue why. Not bad music, but not really prog in any sense, at leat not to me.

They are not prog in any way and should not be in crossover or any other genre. They should not be on here. If Toto aren't here, hundreds of bands that are here should not be.


But then only those that would sound very much like Toto, are of a very similar vein, and/or were heavily influenced by Toto I'd argue. It's best to compare apples with apples methinks, such as "If X is here and Y sounds like X then it seems reasonable that Y should be here too and in the same category." Or "If X is not here, and Y is here and sounds like X, then it might seem reasonable to conclude that Y should not be here either" to fit better with how I followed on from what you wrote.

I like Toto's Dune soundtrack (and it's a film that many deride but I love). And that has Eno's contribution.

As for Nine Inch Nails, it was a controversial addition, and was added on April 1st, so some thought it might have been an April Fool's Day joke. I'm not that familiar with Nine Inch Nails, the only NIN album that I've heard in full is Ghosts I-IV (I like the lack of vocals and ambience of that album), but I assumed NIN was added to Crossover Prog because of the alternative rock qualities and that it had fairly mainstream appeal.   If Prog Related was more open, then I could surmise that were it to be added, then it might have been added there instead.

Edited by Logan - September 24 2020 at 04:52
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Well I for one am pleased you expanded the listings with Proto-Prog and Prog Related as it allows me to be more flexible in my collection to categorize where I felt a Band or an album fits without having to scratch my head on occasion when seeing where it is listed on the internet.

Just listened to Simon Dupree and then looked them up in Youtube to show here as an example:



I am sure as Gentle Giant you know them well :)

Perfect for Proto-Prog in my collection, instead of Pop, where I was never really exactly happy with them.

Or more recent band Kula Shaker as an example Prog Related/Crossover for me.





Well I could list dozens upon dozens... 

Thanks for broadening the scope!
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Originally posted by Enchant X Enchant X wrote:

I think ToTo comes up because anybody whos been to a ToTo concert knows they are very progressive. Not so much based on their studio albums more so based on their live performance. Wink
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Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Originally posted by Enchant X Enchant X wrote:

I think ToTo comes up because anybody whos been to a ToTo concert knows they are very progressive. Not so much based on their studio albums more so based on their live performance. Wink

Nail on head - hit.




Well, we can't expect team members to evaluate Toto based on having seen the band live in concert, so which live albums would you suggest listening to if it were to be evaluated? Not saying it would be, not sure of the history of the suggestions for Toto.

Sorry, I know we should get back to Nice Inch Nails, but I already expressed my not well informed ideas on why Crossover (or maybe I Nine Inch Nailed it).
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Points: 25 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progtime1234567 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 26 2020 at 11:31
I would put them in the prog related category because I know that Trent Reznor could have been influenced by progressive music and the band could have influenced progressive bands, but I wouldn't call Nine inch nails a prog band by any means. 
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So agree. I have some of their CDs and have seen NIN  live . But personally  never ever found a Prog element to their work. 

But then again, I was listening to Planet Rock radio recently and the DJ announced that he was going to play some Prog. Immediately thought, great - will it be Soft Machine, Gentle Giant, Yes ? Then this chap put on a Supertramp track which he said was from an album belonging to his Dad, which amused me somewhat. Later found out that apparently Supertramp are Prog after all. 

So seems individual listeners can find Prog in a whole range of music. 

Originally posted by progtime1234567 progtime1234567 wrote:

I would put them in the prog related category because I know that Trent Reznor could have been influenced by progressive music and the band could have influenced progressive bands, but I wouldn't call Nine inch nails a prog band by any means. 
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  • Toto should be here Angry
  • Journey is here
  • Trent Reznor was influenced by Rush, does not mean he is prog or his band should be here.
  • NIN is categorically an Industrial Rock/Metal band. They should not be here.
  • If NIN is here then so should Rammstein




Edited by Catcher10 - September 26 2020 at 14:37
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Like Logan I know Ghosts I-IV, very good album. I have heard bits and pieces from other albums and was less impressed. Is it prog? I tend to have no opinion on these discussions because labelling isn't really my cup of tea. By and large, the more difficult it is to find a category for a band, the more unique and progressive it is.

"If NIN is here then so should Rammstein" - nah... Rammstein don't have anything that comes remotely close to the progressive qualities of Ghosts. (Neither has Toto, as far as I know, but then of course I've never seen them live.) 


Edited by Lewian - September 26 2020 at 17:01
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Originally posted by Zeph Zeph wrote:

[
The music which can be put into "prog rock" and possibly verging close enough to be included is so diverse that it's a nightmare trying to make any kind of rules that works. PA seems to be including rather than excluding for bands on the verge, and I'm not completely against that. The biggest issue with it is which genre to use.

Another issue is that once an artist has produced an album that is deemed prog, the entire catalogue is put in, and everything in the same genre. I'm more opposed to that system than too many bands being entered.

Not true. If it were like this, Irmin Schmidt would be here. But he isn't, probably because he has done so many different things (including some non-prog) that apparently every team thinks he belongs somewhere else. Tough luck. It's quite frankly ridiculous that he isn't listed.
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Like Logan I know Ghosts I-IV, very good album. I have heard bits and pieces from other albums and was less impressed. Is it prog? I tend to have no opinion on these discussions because labelling isn't really my cup of tea. By and large, the more difficult it is to find a category for a band, the more unique and progressive it is.

"If NIN is here then so should Rammstein" - nah... Rammstein don't have anything that comes remotely close to the progressive qualities of Ghosts. (Neither has Toto, as far as I know, but then of course I've never seen them live.) 
NIN is industrial rock/metal, they are not prog. Rammstein is industrial metal, they are not prog either. These labels are given to them by the music industry, why do people love to re-classify music just to get them in here?? Confused That was kinda my point....

So I am with you....If 5 people think NIN is prog Ok, so what, does not mean they are or should be included here.
I have ZERO issue talking about a bands music if it is progressive or not, but then wanting them here in PA listings takes a different turn.
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Like Logan I know Ghosts I-IV, very good album. I have heard bits and pieces from other albums and was less impressed. Is it prog? I tend to have no opinion on these discussions because labelling isn't really my cup of tea. By and large, the more difficult it is to find a category for a band, the more unique and progressive it is.

"If NIN is here then so should Rammstein" - nah... Rammstein don't have anything that comes remotely close to the progressive qualities of Ghosts. (Neither has Toto, as far as I know, but then of course I've never seen them live.) 


NIN is industrial rock/metal, they are not prog. Rammstein is industrial metal, they are not prog either. These labels are given to them by the music industry, why do people love to re-classify music just to get them in here?? Confused That was kinda my point....

So I am with you....If 5 people think NIN is prog Ok, so what, does not mean they are or should be included here.
I have ZERO issue talking about a bands music if it is progressive or not, but then wanting them here in PA listings takes a different turn.


Based on the one album I have heard in full, Ghosts 1-4, I didn't mind the addition. Didn't care for other NiN I had heard. Ghosts reminded me of Brian Eno work who is in PA. And I have read that Reznor likened it to Robert Fripp and Eno work, and Adrian Belew performed on it. Progressive in its way. I do care less and less about the Prog label even if I do talk about it and consider it. Partially that's because topics get so repetitive here and there isn't always a wide variety of ideas I find mildly entertaining to discuss, and because of some site business. It's never bothered me if music I don't think of as Prog is in the archives. With teamwork I cared that I tried to get it right, and was strict in my way, but different people have different perspectives. If it is a proper thing then the Prog umbrella is such a nebulous and amorphous thing. At least controversial additions made the site a little more lively.

Edited by Logan - September 26 2020 at 20:51
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^ Yes lively would be a good thing around these parts.....After so many years I guess it is only natural that "new" threads are old highways we have traveled already and know them like the back of our hands. 

I'll still play. Smile
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Like Logan I know Ghosts I-IV, very good album. I have heard bits and pieces from other albums and was less impressed. Is it prog? I tend to have no opinion on these discussions because labelling isn't really my cup of tea. By and large, the more difficult it is to find a category for a band, the more unique and progressive it is.

"If NIN is here then so should Rammstein" - nah... Rammstein don't have anything that comes remotely close to the progressive qualities of Ghosts. (Neither has Toto, as far as I know, but then of course I've never seen them live.) 
NIN is industrial rock/metal, they are not prog. Rammstein is industrial metal, they are not prog either. These labels are given to them by the music industry, why do people love to re-classify music just to get them in here?? Confused That was kinda my point....

So I am with you....If 5 people think NIN is prog Ok, so what, does not mean they are or should be included here.
I have ZERO issue talking about a bands music if it is progressive or not, but then wanting them here in PA listings takes a different turn.

Well, as I said, I'm fine with the opinion that they shouldn't be here and I'm neutral myself... however we certainly shouldn't take "labels given by the music industry" as sacred. Why should these guys always be right? They basically do things in order to sell stuff, not based on strictly musical criteria. NIN have undoubtedly done more progressive stuff than Rammstein, so whether they are here or not, it was right to consider them before and over Rammstein.
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Suggesting NIN is industrial is like suggesting Ulver is black metal. Like Ulver, NIN have never stood still, progressing with each album, and creating something different from each time, and sometimes wildly different in sound. Apart from the super-fanatic, there are probably not many fans (if any) who like the entire output. I know a lot of people who like NIN, and none of them like everything. There is so much more to the NiN catalogue than just industrial, and even within the industrial releases, there is a far greater variety than one would normally find from other artists in that genre. If I were to compare NIN to anyone, it wouldn’t be Rammstein, it would be David Bowie. And if Bowie can be on this site, so can NIN. Heck, Bowie and NIN have not only shared a stage, but they’ve shared musicians (Mike Garson and Adrian Belew to name just two). And Bad Witch (my personal favourite NIN release, by the way) sounds to me like NIN’s take on Blackstar, and a tribute to an influential inspiration.

I realise I’m in danger of walking into that old chestnut of prog vs progressive, but it’s hard not to describe NIN in any other way. NIN are prog to me, and I completely see why they have been added to the site. But, equally, I can see why many might disagree. I do wonder how much NIN some of those dissenting have actually listened to, though....
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The Fragile, by Nine Inch Nails, is an excellent double (and prog) album in my opinion.

Here is a good example:
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A little album called THE FRAGILE.
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