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Facemask - the new norm and fassion

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Poll Question: Which typ of mask do you use
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
12 [46.15%]
1 [3.85%]
13 [50.00%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FatherChristmas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:11
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:


Re this whole thread, I find it completely unbelievable how anyone with any level of intelligence can possibly think that covid19 is fake news. JUST THINK ABOUT IT SOME MORE.....



I could not find a single post in which anyone suggests that COVID-19 is fake news. JUST READ IT ONCE MORE..... Wink. It's just the fact that the measures are draconic beyond proportions and way more harmful to most people than the disease could ever be. And I (call me a conspiracy theorist if you want) suspect that the contamination rate may be cranked up because the reliability of the tests is moot. Fake news? No, but the way the journo's on the Dutch TV report about it, and the quantity (between 75% and 85% of all news is my guess), has more to do with brainwashing than with reporting and I find this extremely annoying.
Yes, we get it. This deadly and tragic disease is just exaggerated by the press and governments for the mere purpose of brainwashing people to stay home, wear masks and put people in a state of anxiety just for the fun of it. As you have offered no sensible reason for this mass exaggeration then just for fun is as good as any other. 
Well, I agree the laws are draconian, but they're necessary. Like Steve said, it is a "deadly and tragic disease". Desperate measures need to be put in place.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:19
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

One thing puzzles me - the official Government stats page says covid deaths are "deaths within 28 days of positive test". Is that deaths for any reason? What happens if I test positive and then get run over by a bus the next day?
They'll just say that you were hit by a train.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:23
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

One thing puzzles me - the official Government stats page says covid deaths are "deaths within 28 days of positive test". Is that deaths for any reason? What happens if I test positive and then get run over by a bus the next day?

In those circumstances, you would be counted as part of the Covid death statistics. They do not differentiate between the primary causal death or a positive test. If you have had a positive test and pop your clogs within 28 days for whatever reason, then you are in.

Having worked for government for 36 years now, I must say that no official statistics should ever be taken as verbatim. Many should be taken with a very large pinch of salt.

I have made reference before to an absolute truism of this pandemic period. No one government absolutely knows the infection numbers (many people are asymptomatic and not even tested), the true death figures, or, indeed, much of what is going on at all. Many decisions are based upon theoretical mathematical modelling.

This is, of course, a decent argument for such matters to be devolved fully to local health authorities, rather than the centralised model we have in the UK. Don’t hold your breath, though.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:24
Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Re Lazland:
The laws you mention may seem draconian when applied to young people, but the goal here is to stop the spreading. Young people may not be as likely to get severely ill (yet sometimes they do), but they can still be spreaders that eventually bring the germs to those that are old or have pre-existing conditions


Exactly.



Re this whole thread, I find it completely unbelievable how anyone with any level of intelligence can possibly think that covid19 is fake news. JUST THINK ABOUT IT SOME MORE.....


I agree, but there are plenty of people who think it is fake news (Piers Corbyn) and there are plenty of people who think the earth is flat and man has never walked on the moon.


f**k me this is tiresome.

I have not once, not once, suggested that Covid 19 is fake news. Not once.

I have accused the media and politicians of hysterical reporting and actions.

They are two completely different things.

Compare me to who you like, but Piers bloody Corbyn? He’s a loony. I would like to think I am a little bit more rational than that, at least until about sunset.


Neither myself nor Chopper were suggesting that YOU thought that covid19 is fake news! I agreed with the comment from Easymoney in response to your post, then left a gap and made a further comment on the thread, not about you...and Chopper responded to that....

Okey dokey, thank you.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:35
This is not pointing the finger at anyone in this thread, but more an observation based on my listening to many sources.

Haggling over statistics and laws is pointless, keep it simple:
Listen to your doctor, wear a mask, keep some distance, stop spreading germs so we can all put this behind us. Lets all pull together on this so we can move on someday.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:38
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:


Re this whole thread, I find it completely unbelievable how anyone with any level of intelligence can possibly think that covid19 is fake news. JUST THINK ABOUT IT SOME MORE.....



I could not find a single post in which anyone suggests that COVID-19 is fake news. JUST READ IT ONCE MORE..... Wink. It's just the fact that the measures are draconic beyond proportions and way more harmful to most people than the disease could ever be. And I (call me a conspiracy theorist if you want) suspect that the contamination rate may be cranked up because the reliability of the tests is moot. Fake news? No, but the way the journo's on the Dutch TV report about it, and the quantity (between 75% and 85% of all news is my guess), has more to do with brainwashing than with reporting and I find this extremely annoying.
Yes, we get it. This deadly and tragic disease is just exaggerated by the press and governments for the mere purpose of brainwashing people to stay home, wear masks and put people in a state of anxiety just for the fun of it. As you have offered no sensible reason for this mass exaggeration then just for fun is as good as any other. 

And it is comments such as this which make a serious debate virtually impossible. You know I respect your intelligence and contributions to the forum rather highly, but this does you no credit whatsoever.

I will not speak for others such as Someone Else, but my main objection has been the total and utter lack of nuance and intelligent debate surrounding a virus which, although proven to be fatal to some, particularly, but not exclusively, vulnerable people, is, in fact, pretty mild or non-existent for most of the people who get it. That is a fact, and it is a fact which is not heard too loudly, if at all, in all the coverage around “deadly virus”, “killer disease” and etc.

John (Easy Money) acknowledged that point, and I wish that you would.

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I tend to the belief that most government actions or inactions and sh*te decisions are based on cock-ups rather than a deliberate attempt to piss us all off. I have met many politicians over the years, especially when I was a trade union official, and I found most of them to be decent, honourable, and well intentioned people.

There will be a price to pay for the measures put in place by many countries. Economic, social, mental health, physical health being the greatest. When this is the case, it is right and proper that people and their elected representatives, and the media from which most of us get our news (I am not on social media, I consider much of it to be pointless and moronic) have a rational and informed debate about evidence, choices, and potential outcomes.

It is this which strikes me as being absent. I am as offended as you by the moronic behaviour of some in your country and mine who come up with ridiculous conspiracy theories, and choose to carry on as if absolutely nothing was wrong. I have never made such arguments, but what I will say is this. If you take away their stupid noises, there is still no rational discussion coming from our leaders, and it is the utter calamity of the reaction to the pandemic by governments which provides fodder for the nutters.

I might also add that the WHO of all organisations is condemning lockdowns, precisely because of the social, health, and economic costs that these bring.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:41
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

This is not pointing the finger at anyone in this thread, but more an observation based on my listening to many sources.

Haggling over statistics and laws is pointless, keep it simple:
Listen to your doctor, wear a mask, keep some distance, stop spreading germs so we can all put this behind us. Lets all pull together on this so we can move on someday.

And I would not disagree with a word of this.

At the risk of continuing the debate though, John, I might add that you do not need to lockdown an entire economy in order to achieve this.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 06:51
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

This is not pointing the finger at anyone in this thread, but more an observation based on my listening to many sources.

Haggling over statistics and laws is pointless, keep it simple:
Listen to your doctor, wear a mask, keep some distance, stop spreading germs so we can all put this behind us. Lets all pull together on this so we can move on someday.


And I would not disagree with a word of this.

At the risk of continuing the debate though, John, I might add that you do not need to lockdown an entire economy in order to achieve this.
I've already said I don't support total lockdown. Read my post you just quoted, I see no mention of a lockdown my friend. Keep it simple.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote essexboyinwales Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 07:14
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

This is not pointing the finger at anyone in this thread, but more an observation based on my listening to many sources.

Haggling over statistics and laws is pointless, keep it simple:
Listen to your doctor, wear a mask, keep some distance, stop spreading germs so we can all put this behind us. Lets all pull together on this so we can move on someday.


And I would not disagree with a word of this.

At the risk of continuing the debate though, John, I might add that you do not need to lockdown an entire economy in order to achieve this.
I've already said I don't support total lockdown. Read my post you just quoted, I see no mention of a lockdown my friend. Keep it simple.


Unfortunately there are too many muppets in the UK, who will push or break the limits, for this to work. It would be lovely if we could return to the early days of the first lockdown, where the vast majority did "keep things simple", but there are many reasons why we won't, so locking down across the nation is the only way I can see us getting any sort of hold on this damn virus😔 I totally get the frustration and resentment people feel when their businesses are closed down, but so many just don't seem to care any more and are making it necessary (IMHO). We're in a nightmare situation....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 08:10
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by someone_else someone_else wrote:

Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:


Re this whole thread, I find it completely unbelievable how anyone with any level of intelligence can possibly think that covid19 is fake news. JUST THINK ABOUT IT SOME MORE.....



I could not find a single post in which anyone suggests that COVID-19 is fake news. JUST READ IT ONCE MORE..... Wink. It's just the fact that the measures are draconic beyond proportions and way more harmful to most people than the disease could ever be. And I (call me a conspiracy theorist if you want) suspect that the contamination rate may be cranked up because the reliability of the tests is moot. Fake news? No, but the way the journo's on the Dutch TV report about it, and the quantity (between 75% and 85% of all news is my guess), has more to do with brainwashing than with reporting and I find this extremely annoying.
Yes, we get it. This deadly and tragic disease is just exaggerated by the press and governments for the mere purpose of brainwashing people to stay home, wear masks and put people in a state of anxiety just for the fun of it. As you have offered no sensible reason for this mass exaggeration then just for fun is as good as any other. 

And it is comments such as this which make a serious debate virtually impossible. You know I respect your intelligence and contributions to the forum rather highly, but this does you no credit whatsoever.

I will not speak for others such as Someone Else, but my main objection has been the total and utter lack of nuance and intelligent debate surrounding a virus which, although proven to be fatal to some, particularly, but not exclusively, vulnerable people, is, in fact, pretty mild or non-existent for most of the people who get it. That is a fact, and it is a fact which is not heard too loudly, if at all, in all the coverage around “deadly virus”, “killer disease” and etc.

John (Easy Money) acknowledged that point, and I wish that you would.

I am not a conspiracy theorist. I tend to the belief that most government actions or inactions and sh*te decisions are based on cock-ups rather than a deliberate attempt to piss us all off. I have met many politicians over the years, especially when I was a trade union official, and I found most of them to be decent, honourable, and well intentioned people.

There will be a price to pay for the measures put in place by many countries. Economic, social, mental health, physical health being the greatest. When this is the case, it is right and proper that people and their elected representatives, and the media from which most of us get our news (I am not on social media, I consider much of it to be pointless and moronic) have a rational and informed debate about evidence, choices, and potential outcomes.

It is this which strikes me as being absent. I am as offended as you by the moronic behaviour of some in your country and mine who come up with ridiculous conspiracy theories, and choose to carry on as if absolutely nothing was wrong. I have never made such arguments, but what I will say is this. If you take away their stupid noises, there is still no rational discussion coming from our leaders, and it is the utter calamity of the reaction to the pandemic by governments which provides fodder for the nutters.

I might also add that the WHO of all organisations is condemning lockdowns, precisely because of the social, health, and economic costs that these bring.
I'm sorry you feel as you do Steve, but my gripe with Some_One _Else is not his claims of draconian measures or lack of freedoms, of which I said I agree with. The government running your life is not conducive to any form of constitutional freedoms. What I object to is the lack of stated reasons for these draconian measures which seem to be totally secondary, as if the government or WHO is telling people to shower 10 times a day and enforcing that rule. There is no rational or scientific reason for that. However, there are sound reasons for lockdowns, mask wearing and the like. The degree of such measures is what should be debated, not the need, implication or enforcement of those measures.
It's also worth noting that this pandemic will not last forever.  Restaurants and bars will be reopened, along schools, gyms, etc. And people will be allowed to gather in public again, without the need or edict to wear masks, isolate, etc. In other words, these rules and practices infringing on us are temporary and no one in his right mind, who enjoys life, would wish to continue them when the pandemic is over.
Furthermore, the courts and all those who are empowered to enforce the rights of people have not disappeared with the virus. If these measures are deamed by them to be unconstitutional, then so be it. But this has not happened in any large shape of form.
 
It's only with the collapse of those safeguards that a truly totalitarian state can exist. And that includes the loss of all of the liberties that we take for granted like trial by jury, due process, right to representation, anti discrimination based on sex, color or whatever, etc. And anyone that that thinks that any of these institutions dissolving or going away, based on some kind of precedent set by an unprecedented world wide epidemic, does not understand the basis and safeguards of their constitutional rights. We can discuss many other things here constructively, but I doubt that any type of constructive argument in this thread could change that lack of understanding.
 
Edit: typed and edited by one of my granddaughters, whose name I always get wrong. ;)


Edited by SteveG - October 23 2020 at 08:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote twseel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 10:45
I'll weigh in that the media attention for corona in up-to-date talkshows and news shows (back in the NL at least) has gotten tiring very quickly, about a week after the first lockdown I started to avoid anything but major government announcements when it came to corona, the constant repetition of the same issues is really making devout news followers and hypochondriacs needlessly anxious. On the other and you still hear people popping up who think the scientific authorities told them that mouth masks do absolutely nothing, and there's people like my half-sister who is so deep into conspiracy theorism and mistrust that she practically starts to shake from anger when we discuss the corona policy around her... Students are still partying everywhere around here, even now that the bars are closed. A friend of mine was even going to seriously big house parties and raves this summer. 
People are still spreading corona and causing frustration is what I'm trying to say, and ideally I'd say the weight shift away from media and more towards assertive government action. I don't really relate to the fear of governments trying to 'assert power' against its people, the government has always put limits on what people wear and how they congregate, for example. I think, from the outbreak onwards, the better solution from the government would have been to make a bigger, more complex lockdown plan, with more small, realistic fines for rule-breakers, and furthermore a more progressive temporary tax system and a pause on affected labour contracts, so that employees can be put on temporary wellfare and businesses won't go bankrupt during lockdown. Not that I've really looked into the specifics of why they didn't work out like that but maybe our slow compromise-based multi-party system had something to do with it, or maybe I'm just rambling nonsense... Either way, our government (and surely other ones too) worked hard to establish a passable, people-pleasing policy that tries to succumb to all sides at once, and has ended up with rather inconsistent and inefficient policy as a result, which then causes the talk show debates to keep on going indefinitely...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2020 at 07:33
Hi,

I was thinking that pretty soon I have to wear a mask to post here!

.................................................

!!!!!

Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 05:21
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

I was thinking that pretty soon I have to wear a mask to post here!

.................................................

!!!!!

Wink
For safety, I also recommend that you stay 6 feet away from your PC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 06:42
no one is bothered by the misspelling of "fashion" in the thread title? I find it funny, if there's a word that deserves a misspelling is "fashion" LOL
FASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 06:48
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

no one is bothered by the misspelling of "fashion" in the thread title? I find it funny, if there's a word that deserves a misspelling is "fashion" LOL
FASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Yes, I had noticed the obvious misspelling, but I didn't want to be too pedantic about it. Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 07:08
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

no one is bothered by the misspelling of "fashion" in the thread title? I find it funny, if there's a word that deserves a misspelling is "fashion" LOL
FASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Yes, I had noticed the obvious misspelling, but I didn't want to be too pedantic about it. Wink

so if anyone points out a spelling mistake, they are pedantic? Confused
LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 07:18
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

no one is bothered by the misspelling of "fashion" in the thread title? I find it funny, if there's a word that deserves a misspelling is "fashion" LOL
FASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Yes, I had noticed the obvious misspelling, but I didn't want to be too pedantic about it. Wink

so if anyone points out a spelling mistake, they are pedantic? Confused
LOL
The original poster, Icarium, is from Tigerstaden (wherever that is), so I'm guessing English isn't his first language and I didn't want to be picky about his spelling. After all, I doubt if my spelling would be much good in your native language either. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 07:21
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

no one is bothered by the misspelling of "fashion" in the thread title? I find it funny, if there's a word that deserves a misspelling is "fashion" LOL
FASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Yes, I had noticed the obvious misspelling, but I didn't want to be too pedantic about it. Wink

so if anyone points out a spelling mistake, they are pedantic? Confused
LOL
The original poster, Icarium, is from Tigerstaden (wherever that is), so I'm guessing English isn't his first language and I didn't want to be picky about his spelling. After all, I doubt if my spelling would be much good in your native language either. Smile

I am not a native speaker either LOL
But I can spell...
FASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 07:26
^ I can see you have a passion for fashion! Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 07:28
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

^ I can see you have a passion for fashion! Tongue

FASSION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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