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Weirdest time signatures in traditional prog

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2020 at 02:10
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

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Sorry to hear that, but it works just fine here. I'm sure you'll find it elsewhere on YouTube, there have to be more uploads. If not in your own RL collection :)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2020 at 08:34
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

...
If you don't want to "break it down," then fine. But some of us do, and want to learn from it. How to play it, how to write it. How to express it in groupings, how to describe it to someone else. How to come together as a group and play it. This is valid. If you want to call me an academic, go ahead. But I'll be having more fun losing myself to the feel THROUGH the numbers, rather than in spite of, while you complain.
Hi,

I believe that you have misread and misrepresented what I was trying to say.

"Creating" anything, be it music, painting, or literature ... can be done in a variety of ways, and you do not seem to understand or have a clear idea what an "improvisation" really is ... other than something you or your partner came up with and then explained it to each other.

There is more in a lot of improvisation, that can not be "defined" and a lot of the "progressive" music in the early days, had that feeling and idealism of something that just happened, which was ... granted ... the expression at the time, at the Fillmore and other places ... it was THE FUN AND THE TRIP that mattered, and a lot of the school stuff be damned.

It's bizarre what you are saying, when we just lost Eddie, and he was completely self taught and loved to say ... forget the circle of fifths ... and it was obvious that he felt that a lot of "music" (specially notation!!!!!) was very limiting to the expression of an instrument that has an ability to free form, like so much music never had!

There is nothing wrong with time signatures ... and in school (UCSB) the main point of the music department and composition (specifically) was to change time signatures and concepts, with the idea of making it more interesting and in the process, all you got were kids that were just changing notes and chords and timing at random ... which we can do with any DAW these days ... but still does not satisfy ... but the ability to mix and match them, is not a trick, but a measure of the "right time and place" for it ... or it will not sound good at all.

This is the case with theater, film, and literature, and the only place where people have a tendency to fight it, is within rock music, and I think the main issue is that most rock musicians are completely afraid of open improvisation, because it leaves them going ... where do I go? ... and this has not been an issue with European bands that expressed their freedom (specially the early "krautrock") ... but only an issue within the COMMERCIAL WORLD of music in America and England, because they hate something that they can not "understand" or doesn't have lyrics to tell them what the story is as if you were a child!

If you are a true musician, you ought to try and do some reading on "improvisation" ... so you have a better idea what I am saying, because for my eyes and ears, you have no idea. I do not EVER doubt your ability as a musician at all ... I doubt your "open-ness" to some exercises that might (then again might not) help open up the idea mechanism you use to create music ... 

CREATIVITY is an OPEN PROCESS and it is NEVER ENDING. But the music you talk about has limits and stops at a certain point ... and I'm not sure that many of these people realize or see the history of music ... they will not be seen or remembered, because they did nothing different from anyone else ... and what you are defending is a process that is old, not inventive anymore, and relies on your ability to "play it", instead of your ability to hear it ... if you can hear it, I GUARANTEE YOU, that you will find a way to express it! Sort of like a movie (Amadeus) where he has to explain to Salieri what the notes should be for what he sees ... while Salieri could not see it "with meaning". At the time, it was not thought of as music ... but today, as some of the best things ever done ... you could call that an attempt at TRANSLATING THE VISION in his mind which required new tools and new note designs and strokes ... I'm not sure you see that.

Progressive ... was inspired by a lot of things, and classical music history could be said to be one, and its development and changes ... but what you are suggesting is that what you do can't improve ... other than a change of time (signature) and notes or chords ... and that is simply not true. It feels like having to teach a drummer what NOT TO DO in a moment of quiet in the music, when most of them continue the beating of the same time and beat during it. How intelligent is that? I call it bad drumming!


Edited by moshkito - October 22 2020 at 08:35
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2020 at 09:56
I know plenty about improvisation, thank you. And not just in the context of Jazz. When it comes to that mode of composition, I do that all the time. I've come up with melody lines and forms and progressions, etc., and they ended up being pretty math-y, yet I wasn't thinking about that at all. That was figured out later just so we could write it down and clearly see it. That way, we could try figuring out the best way to express it rhythmically. I never dreamed it would be as complicated as it was, but that's just what it was. And now, if we want to teach it to others, we have the score. It's not set in stone per se, I'd love to get another musician's take on it. But there's nothing wrong with relying on BOTH the ability to play and feel. 

I do believe that one can get lost in the numbers and the theory and lose the feeling. But it works both ways. I knew someone in college who played guitar in big band and the jazz combos. He said "I don't really know much about the theory, I just play by feel." He was... ok... to say the MOST. But I knew his potential was being squandered because he wasn't practicing and he didn't learn the theory OR the history. He just played what felt right. And it sounded... almost like jazz... sometimes. And sure, Jazz doesn't have one specific sound. But the greatest hard bop, post bop, fusion, modern, etc. players had a basis in BEBOP. That has been the foundation of Jazz since the 40s. Jazz isn't just a genre, it's a tradition, borne from the Blues. And Bebop is an expression of that tradition fused with Classical cadences. If you don't know your circle of fifths, you better be some kind of savant at feel. Take it from a musician who's been playing most of his life, and if not me, the word of other musicians I know with many more years of experience. Most people NEED TO KNOW THE THEORY TO BE GOOD PLAYERS, IMPROVISERS, AND/OR COMPOSERS. 

Breaking new ground and being "progressive" doesn't materialize from nothing. 


Edited by Awesoreno - October 22 2020 at 09:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2020 at 16:27
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

...
Breaking new ground and being "progressive" doesn't materialize from nothing. 

Hi,

Not sure about this one ... because we could easily ask Brian Eno about it, and many other musicians that were, for all intents and purposes ... "anti-music", something similar to the previous version in France of "anti-film" which basically meant to let go of all conventions related to the medium and come up with something else. A lot of the "krautrock" folks, did a lot of things from ... nothing ... and today they are respected as outstanding musicians ... the point being that if you don't try what you don't know, how can you say that it can't help you?

I have never once, disliked a piece of music, because of time signatures, be it GG, DT or anyone else that loved switching things around fast and furious and sometimes, yeah, it feels like they are showing you they can do it, however, I'm not sure that the part was put there to show that as much as it was a different break of some sort (my description) before moving on to another part.

If you have the chance, take a look at Kevin Godley's video on his website with a long interview (just over an hour) that explains a lot of what he does, and how improvised work makes it ... and also how some of it also does not make it ... it goes both ways, but he will tell you that it is all over what he does from the earliest days of being a musician ... and as he says, one kinda learns about that in "art school", when in those days the "freedom" to leave behind the conventions was important that helped bring us so much different music that we still love today ... not to mention that Europe had the same thing going, and rock music was at least 10 years behind film, theater and literature in the continent!

I see it as ... being a part of the continuity of the pieces of music ... not something that "requires" a different signature or chord change ... and many times, one can find some of that in a "mistake" ... and as a famous theater/film director once said ... there are no mistakes ... only our inability to work with it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 22 2020 at 21:12
I do not dispute that progressive music does not "requires" rhythmic, melodic, or harmonic complexity. It doesn't. And I respect self-described "non-musicians" such as Brian Eno. Many of them are progressive in the truest sense of the word. But I also believe there are multiple ways to be progressive in the context of the time. Flying in the face of all conventions in music can be progressive, but it is not NECESSARY to be progressive. Minimalism was progressive. Zappa and Beefheart's maximalism was progressive. A background in, deep knowledge of, or adherence to the conventions of music does not disqualify and artist from being progressive. For GG, at that time, showing they could write and play that WAS progressive. DT, maybe not so much (I enjoy much of their catalogue, but I am a separator of prog and progressive). But GG almost certainly composed their works BOTH organically AND in a planned way. Plenty of musicians do it. They don't confine themselves. Eno was so great because he didn't either. 

One of the most progressive forms of music being made right now is microtonal electronic music. They use different equally distributed sets of tones across an octave that differ from the traditional 12-tone system. You could program a piece of music where one note isn't repeated an octave higher until you've gone up 23 or 37 or 44 notes. Yes, this is breaking conventions, but it is also RECOGNIZING them. One must have a deep knowledge of the theory and the numbers to create music that breaks the boundaries set by most Western music, and many other forms of music around the world. I imagine Eno would be very supportive of this concept. It's an experiment as much as it is an expression. 

Herbie Hancock has a lot to say both on jazz theory AND on playing by feel. As one of my heroes, I tend to defer to his wisdom. I think it's good to know the "rules" before you break or change them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 09:35
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

...
But GG almost certainly composed their works BOTH organically AND in a planned way. Plenty of musicians do it. They don't confine themselves. Eno was so great because he didn't either. 
...

According with an interview with GG a few years back, when the interviewer is trying to "tell" Gary what "progressive" means, he merely replied ... we never wrote anything ... we just played! However, that might have been so much more in the early days, rather than later. I think that by the time they made it to America, that things had to change so they could put together a show on stage.

Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

...
Herbie Hancock has a lot to say both on jazz theory AND on playing by feel. As one of my heroes, I tend to defer to his wisdom. I think it's good to know the "rules" before you break or change them.

With one difference ... when many of these folks "broke the rules" they were too young to "know" the rules ... and were not "advanced" and "knowledgeable" musicians ... and we hear stories all the time, that they barely knew a chord or two ... and we continually forget the enthusiasm of youth in these things.

I don't think that YES, ELP, KC or anyone else, then, ever stated or thought they were breaking the rules ... they were more interested in the freedom they found in their expression. And I think that it was Jim Morrison that stated ... "rules? what rules?" ... in regards to his music, and the fact that he was almost different each and every night on his material. Rock'n'roll'ers have a hard time with that, because the change of one note is hardly ever seen or understood, specially when it is "hidden" and not in a major part of any material or song. 

But don't forget that from the 50's on, English Theater, Film and a lot of literature underwent a serious revolution in expression, so to see folks in a new/different area in music, define something for themselves and then play it ... is not a surprise ... except to folks that only think of these as a "song" and not a part of the history of the time and place. 

At that point, history dies, and the conversation becomes incredibly silly, and bizarre.

Again, I never thought of "signatures" as any more valuable/important to "prog" or "progressive" than anything else, but it could be said that they were a nice way to break away from the top ten melody thing ... the cheapest and poorest music ever created and defined ... 


Edited by moshkito - October 23 2020 at 09:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 09:46
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

Just go here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_works_in_unusual_time_signatures

Prog, non-prog, classical, etc. All the time signatures you could ever want to know about.


Nice! I love the so-called irrational time signatures. The music presented on this list is very compelling for further exploration.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 09:49
Roger Water's riff on Pink Floyd's "Money", which weirdly enough is probably the most famous bass line, maybe with a trailing "Come Together"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 09:57
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Roger Water's riff on Pink Floyd's "Money", which weirdly enough is probably the most famous bass line, maybe with a trailing "Come Together"

Hi,

Nahhhhh .. Stanley Clarke's is better! And one that you have to learn in Bass School or you don't pass!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 23 2020 at 10:03
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Roger Water's riff on Pink Floyd's "Money", which weirdly enough is probably the most famous bass line, maybe with a trailing "Come Together"

Hi,

Nahhhhh .. Stanley Clarke's is better! And one that you have to learn in Bass School or you don't pass!
Which one is that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 24 2020 at 00:55
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

Sometimes the artistry comes from how the time signatures work mathematically. You don't have to do everything by "feel." For many, the "feel" comes from the novelty of the numbers. Art comes in all forms, it's a reflection of life. Sometimes, life is about emotions, and other times, it involves ordered patterns, equations, forms, etc. So I'm sure math rockers wouldn't appreciate an attack on their art. It is every bit as valid as dreaming away music. And don't me started on Jazz. The best Jazz artists practiced for hours on the numbers and the math that comes with tonality, scales, chords, key signatures, chromaticism, etc. Only then could they do it effortlessly by feel. 

Exactly, you get it.

I love, love, LOVE the argument "It doesn't have to be technical to be good" etc. It goes both ways, and people hate that because music is whatever you enjoy hearing. I find most of the people that argue for simplicity and melody over technique are just as closed minded, if not more so, than they people they insist are all about tech over all else.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote altaeria Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2020 at 14:08

if you're looking for a "traditional prog" act 
with lots of really unusual time signatures and virtuoso playing
complemented by memorable melodies and strong vocals .... 
then, of course, you want to listen to either studio album by UK .  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2020 at 19:02
Bubblemath. Thank me later.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2020 at 20:44
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

...
I love, love, LOVE the argument "It doesn't have to be technical to be good" etc. It goes both ways, and people hate that because music is whatever you enjoy hearing. I find most of the people that argue for simplicity and melody over technique are just as closed minded, if not more so, than they people they insist are all about tech over all else.

HI,

IF, it goes both ways ... then then the technical part falls off and something else is there ... many ways something that we can't describe or YET know which notes and technicalities came out of it ... and this is the point of a SOLID improvisation, not a riff oriented improvisation where the chords and numbers are FAR more important to its continuity.

This was one of the BIG things about the experimentations and improvised material ... same thing with Miles Davis ... you didn't know what he was going to do -- he stated that he didn't either and only had a small idea!!! -- this is in the special that was either on Hulu or Amazon) ... but the ability to ADD something to the material he came up with, was something that his mates seemed to have figured out and it could be said that they had to have the technicality to break down Miles' doing quickly so they can do something, before it's too late!

On the interview with Chris Squire, he explains how he came up with his bass opening for CTTE ... and it was plainly by feel ... had nothing to do with anything else ... he said that somehow it felt right that they all started independently of each other when they started putting it together.

And this is something, I THINK, that is a measure that is more of a youthful feeling, than it is a musical feeling -- defined by musical rules --- and it is the freedom and ability to put that together with the rest that makes it right, and this was the "trick" for a lot of the experimentalists (you can even go to Henry Cow and the related family) at the time ... and I like to state that some musicians were better informed about their desires of what you wanted to do as you felt, than they were about music itself as their age ... but when we look at it afterwards, YES, we can define it on paper and in notes and all that ... 

Music can be written before it is played ... and it can also be played way before it is written ... and that time made room for folks to try different things, that today, most folks do not appreciate or can consider doing ... and us thinking that the mentality has to be dictated by the rules is not always the correct thing to consider ... since it could just as easily been defined 180 degrees out, in a different plane!

Just read the article on Keith Jarrett ... he was a kid when the aunt (I think it was) that was teaching him took him to a creek/small river to hear the water move and pass by ... she told him to make music that sounded that good ... and he says that was his first improvisation ... a simple exercise in LISTENING to what's inside you and adjust so you can create something ... and he was too young to know/understand any mechanics and rules that students eventually learn.


Edited by moshkito - October 26 2020 at 20:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frenetic Zetetic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 00:34
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

...
I love, love, LOVE the argument "It doesn't have to be technical to be good" etc. It goes both ways, and people hate that because music is whatever you enjoy hearing. I find most of the people that argue for simplicity and melody over technique are just as closed minded, if not more so, than they people they insist are all about tech over all else.

HI,

IF, it goes both ways ... then then the technical part falls off and something else is there ... many ways something that we can't describe or YET know which notes and technicalities came out of it ... and this is the point of a SOLID improvisation, not a riff oriented improvisation where the chords and numbers are FAR more important to its continuity.

This was one of the BIG things about the experimentations and improvised material ... same thing with Miles Davis ... you didn't know what he was going to do -- he stated that he didn't either and only had a small idea!!! -- this is in the special that was either on Hulu or Amazon) ... but the ability to ADD something to the material he came up with, was something that his mates seemed to have figured out and it could be said that they had to have the technicality to break down Miles' doing quickly so they can do something, before it's too late!

On the interview with Chris Squire, he explains how he came up with his bass opening for CTTE ... and it was plainly by feel ... had nothing to do with anything else ... he said that somehow it felt right that they all started independently of each other when they started putting it together.

And this is something, I THINK, that is a measure that is more of a youthful feeling, than it is a musical feeling -- defined by musical rules --- and it is the freedom and ability to put that together with the rest that makes it right, and this was the "trick" for a lot of the experimentalists (you can even go to Henry Cow and the related family) at the time ... and I like to state that some musicians were better informed about their desires of what you wanted to do as you felt, than they were about music itself as their age ... but when we look at it afterwards, YES, we can define it on paper and in notes and all that ... 

Music can be written before it is played ... and it can also be played way before it is written ... and that time made room for folks to try different things, that today, most folks do not appreciate or can consider doing ... and us thinking that the mentality has to be dictated by the rules is not always the correct thing to consider ... since it could just as easily been defined 180 degrees out, in a different plane!

Just read the article on Keith Jarrett ... he was a kid when the aunt (I think it was) that was teaching him took him to a creek/small river to hear the water move and pass by ... she told him to make music that sounded that good ... and he says that was his first improvisation ... a simple exercise in LISTENING to what's inside you and adjust so you can create something ... and he was too young to know/understand any mechanics and rules that students eventually learn.

Agreed. Great post! I'm one of the few here that enjoys your longer posts Smile.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2020 at 07:27
Originally posted by Frenetic Zetetic Frenetic Zetetic wrote:

...
Agreed. Great post! I'm one of the few here that enjoys your longer posts Smile.

Hi,

Thank you ... they are not long by design at all ... I try really hard to be on point and continuous ... and the hard part to get across folks is a sense of history ... and how some folks did their thing, SPECIALLY in the experimental field ... it could be the Berlin factory stating loud and clear no western concepts (funny how we don't even want to know some of those that we use every day!) ... or it could be someone like AD2 ... and Renate has said that they wanted (their early music!) to have a classical music feel in continuity and I think this was a reaction to the earlier commune drum circles not coming to anything that could be considered "music" ... that would suggest not a rock format at all.

All in all, the hard part of discussing all this is that I have been for a long time a student and have gotten to know enough about improvisation to write a book on it ... and mention many examples in all kinds of arts, though I'm basically ignorant when it comes to painting, but hand drawing is another story!

And I still have over 50 issues of THE DRAMA REVIEW (became The Tulane Review I believe) and it was about a lot of experimentation in theater and in the spoken arts in general since there was more than just theater in it, and film was eventually added.

It's hard to see a lot of those descriptions and studies within a rock music context ... as, generally, the rock music folks are not as capable to create something different, and their tendency, as is so obvious is to always learn (first) their favorite song), whereas theater for example mixes different plays and styles a lot more, which makes for an "individual" study a lot more so you can fit in. By comparison, rock music is about fitting in ... to sell something within the last 30 years ... but it had a very lively and exciting life of freedom for a good 10 to 15 years until the corporate structure made all the FM stations their underpants.

The difficulty is writing something here, and people think I'm just being way out in left field, which is not the case ... but if that's what some folks see ... let it be! To me ... and I have seen this in theater and in psychic shows ... all they are showing is their fear to do something "different" that has the potential of adding/changing to the way you look at your art!


Edited by moshkito - October 27 2020 at 07:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deadwing Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2020 at 09:06
No idea what the time signature of this song is in the beginning:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXkO_pHgI-w


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Meltdowner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2020 at 09:13
^ 11/8?
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Awesoreno View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 28 2020 at 13:15
I think it's just 6/8, but the drummer keeps coming in early sometimes to just add some flavor. That's a nice track.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2020 at 10:22
In my opinion, the worst music comes about when a composer decides on a time signature before the actual musical content. 

OK, it's waltz time, 3/4. If not, 4/4.

If you're Dave Brubeck, it's 5/4. 

Brubeck - with "Time Out", decided to write jazz in unusual time signatures, like ones the group had heard in Turkey. Whilst the album was a success, a massive success, in fact, this seemed to convince jazzers that there was money to be made (and also to appear clever) by writing music in unusual time signatures. The idea seemed to trickle down to prog rock in the 70's.

I just think it makes bad music if you sit down, write 7/4 after the treble clef and then think hmmmm. In my experience, anyway, you think of the music first - what does it sound like - and then that generates which time signature you're in at the moment. 

Talking of 7/4, I once worked with an imbecile who thought he was "a musician" - he wasn't. He declared he "was going to write a piece in 7/4 as it was clever" - he didn't. 

I said go the whole hog and write it in F or C sharp or even go microtonal. Which shut him up. 

Talking of which. 

We're on "unusual time signatures here" and everyone with basic musical skill can count time and, in some cases, recognise time signatures. But how many can work out what key music is in and how difficult it is to play on, say, a sax or keyboards ? Stringed instruments are a little simpler as you're shifting root note positions.... until you get to something like E flat. 

Then add in "microtonality". That's very clever. I'd attempt it with the right instruments, such as an Afghani rubab, and I'd absolutely flounder. 

There's nothing "clever" about complicated time signatures, keys or anything else, it all depends on the actual music. A bad piece of music will not be saved by it being in 11/8. 

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