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AFlowerKingCrimson View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 19 2020 at 11:52
In the late 90's and early 2000's I either had a turn table or had access to one. I would go to record stores that sold cds and vinyl. Typically I would just buy used viny for a dollar per album. I wasn't exactly bumping elbows with people but I was not the only one looking through the vinyl either. I would also buy stuff at thrift stores. At some point(maybe around 2005)I got rid of the record player and speakers because they were old. I do plan on getting one again one day. 
When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2020 at 00:16
Par Lindh Project - Gothic Impressions.
Wonderful music and artwork.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2020 at 01:19
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

I was too lazy to search Discogs by title to review release info but looks like that might be my best bet. I've been culling my CD collection and I keep wondering, 'Is this on LP?'

CD's have a very low resale value, so a CD only or limited release might have a better market price.

So that raises a second question...

Why don't CD's have a similar value as LP's, even more recent releases?

I'm guessing the following factors:
-Mass production (for the most part)
-Durability (things that can wear out quicker (LP's) are more valuable if kept safe)
-Hipness
I would say three things make LPs more expensive than CDs:
1) Clever music marketing people have made the LP cool again.
2) LPs probably cost more to produce.
3) A lot of people think LPs sound better. To my ears LPs sound better on a lot of music, but when it comes to modern digitally produced electronic music, CDs sound fine. To my ears, older acoustic music that was recorded on analog equipment sounds better on LP.
For instance, digitally reproduced string sections have always sounded like a digital sample of strings to me. Owning a sampler and using it gave me a clearer idea of what digitally reproduced sounds sound like.
Used LPs are more expensive than used CDs, which have almost no value anymore. New CD releases are still in the US$15-$18 range, some more and less. New records can run $20-$30, some more some less, dbl LPs can run $35.
More than anything, CDs big problem is that not many audio mfg offer a CD player anymore, almost all new cars do not have a CD player. There really is no reason to buy a CD anymore, new at least. Its a format that is lossy restricted to 20hz-20khz, full of compression and brickwalled to hell.......It's a shame that the digital industry has not been able to save the CD.
CDs sound like you said, just fine....That's been my problem since I first bought a CD player in '85, it has never wowed me. 
Today we have records and analog equipment that in most cases rivals the sound of digital, you can't deny that's what people want. Analog gear today is light years better than anything I had in the 70s-80s, electronics are simply better for analog.

Capturing live music in a studio recording session using digital gear has been the best thing to happen to music for sure, save that to a 24-32bit file and you have everything. Then what happens is the unskilled engineer trashes the recording with piss poor mastering, mixing....that's what we hear and what most people complain about. Take that 24bit file and master it for vinyl and you have magic.....You want something close you have to spend uber money on a DSD system, 24bit hi-rez comes close but still not there. Those 24bit hi-rez and DSD files cost more than records, and you own nothing...what is a digital file??

LPs have been around forever, they are not going anywhere...they never did. I figure those marketing people simply jumped ship and left the CD world for a format that they can make a living off of......maybe. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2020 at 01:28
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

So I got to wondering today if, during the CD heyday, any artists released an album on CD that never had a Vinyl release.

So here's my question.

What CD only release deserves an LP format?

Not sure off the top of my head regarding rock or progressive rock. Anything I can think of that was released on CD only in the 90's has been issued on LP.
There are some R&B/Funk CDs that have not been issued on LP. 

Collective Soul s/t was just released on LP this past August for first time, after 25yrs.....I have not ordered it yet, one of my better sounding CDs, everything I have read is the LP version is brilliant, full of dynamics. It was cut at SST GmbH, they do excellent work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2020 at 07:45
^An excellent album. I may have to investigate that one.
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2020 at 08:43
Originally posted by Gentle and Giant Gentle and Giant wrote:

I refer to Discogs a lot and these stood out to me recently from VdGG:

https://www.discogs.com/Van-Der-Graaf-Generator-Present/master/33433
https://www.discogs.com/Van-Der-Graaf-Generator-Trisector/master/425834

There will probably be LPs of these some time I imagine, though I doubt Psychedelic Paul will ne buying Present lol 
You're right! I bought Van der Graaf Generator's two superb 1970 albums last Christmas, but I have no plans to add any more  VDGG CD's to my collection at Present. Smile


Edited by Psychedelic Paul - December 20 2020 at 08:43
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2020 at 16:48
I'm quite sure that Roger Waters' Amused To Death didn't have a vinyl edition, actually. I think it has been reprinted on vinyl later.


Edited by octopus-4 - December 22 2020 at 16:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2020 at 17:01
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

I'm quite sure that Roger Waters' Amused To Death didn't have a vinyl edition, actually. I think it has been reprinted on vinyl later.
It was issued in 1992 on LP, not in the US though. The original Columbia/Europe LPs are very pricey, upwards of $200.
It has also been reissued/remastered in 2015, I think, pressed by Analogue Productions on 200g vinyl...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progmind Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 22 2020 at 22:44
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Par Lindh Project - Gothic Impressions.
Wonderful music and artwork.

Great!!!, and ill recommend sInkadus "Cirkus" and "Aura Nostrum" too
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 03:33
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Used LPs are more expensive than used CDs, which have almost no value anymore. New CD releases are still in the US$15-$18 range, some more and less. New records can run $20-$30, some more some less, dbl LPs can run $35.
More than anything, CDs big problem is that not many audio mfg offer a CD player anymore, almost all new cars do not have a CD player. There really is no reason to buy a CD anymore, new at least. Its a format that is lossy restricted to 20hz-20khz, full of compression and brickwalled to hell.......It's a shame that the digital industry has not been able to save the CD.
CDs sound like you said, just fine....That's been my problem since I first bought a CD player in '85, it has never wowed me. 
Today we have records and analog equipment that in most cases rivals the sound of digital, you can't deny that's what people want. Analog gear today is light years better than anything I had in the 70s-80s, electronics are simply better for analog.

LPs have been around forever, they are not going anywhere...they never did. I figure those marketing people simply jumped ship and left the CD world for a format that they can make a living off of......maybe. 


Mmmhhh!!!... CDs are still outselling vinyls 5 to 1, according to the industry, but it's clear that the industry prefers selling vinyls because of a wider profit margin. Taking advantage of the public's gullibity, I guess.

We went from AAA to AAD to ADD to DDD , and recently vinyls have made it DDA and maybe even DAA, but once a D is in the equation (no matter where), the interest for analog/vinyl is purely in the mindframe (the hipster's mindframeConfusedLOL)

As for new cars, indeed the number of models coming with CD player as standard equipment is diminishing, but last time I rented one in March (A Nissan Kashgai, I believe), it had one and sdo did the two Mercedes I rented previously (in 2019). Anyways, it's nothing a good car customizing couldn't fix if you don't have one but want to install one.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 08:53
Hi,

It's pretty obvious that as time goes by even the CD will fall out ... already, about a third of the music I am hearing (Space Pirate Radio), is not even available on CD at all ... and while I originally frowned on not being able to get a CD ... there isn't one ... and I wanted that long piece by Reuter and Quaeschning! But it is only available in download. 

I still get a few CD's but it's getting harder to find the very things you want, and in some cases some of the older materials have a ridiculous price.
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now, where is your own art? An idea? www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 09:04
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Used LPs are more expensive than used CDs, which have almost no value anymore. New CD releases are still in the US$15-$18 range, some more and less. New records can run $20-$30, some more some less, dbl LPs can run $35.
More than anything, CDs big problem is that not many audio mfg offer a CD player anymore, almost all new cars do not have a CD player. There really is no reason to buy a CD anymore, new at least. Its a format that is lossy restricted to 20hz-20khz, full of compression and brickwalled to hell.......It's a shame that the digital industry has not been able to save the CD.
CDs sound like you said, just fine....That's been my problem since I first bought a CD player in '85, it has never wowed me. 
Today we have records and analog equipment that in most cases rivals the sound of digital, you can't deny that's what people want. Analog gear today is light years better than anything I had in the 70s-80s, electronics are simply better for analog.

LPs have been around forever, they are not going anywhere...they never did. I figure those marketing people simply jumped ship and left the CD world for a format that they can make a living off of......maybe. 


Mmmhhh!!!... CDs are still outselling vinyls 5 to 1, according to the industry, but it's clear that the industry prefers selling vinyls because of a wider profit margin. Taking advantage of the public's gullibity, I guess.

We went from AAA to AAD to ADD to DDD , and recently vinyls have made it DDA and maybe even DAA, but once a D is in the equation (no matter where), the interest for analog/vinyl is purely in the mindframe (the hipster's mindframeConfusedLOL)

As for new cars, indeed the number of models coming with CD player as standard equipment is diminishing, but last time I rented one in March (A Nissan Kashgai, I believe), it had one and sdo did the two Mercedes I rented previously (in 2019). Anyways, it's nothing a good car customizing couldn't fix if you don't have one but want to install one.

The first D will always be there, it's the next 2 that the digital industry has not been able to master (pun intended) well in the digital world. Recording in the studio should be digital, that has no effect on what we hear on CD, streaming or on LP, and a hipster has nothing to do with why records are in higher demand. ConfusedThe only thing they have created demand for is beard trimming equipment.....LOL

What digital has done to music is removed the emotion to recording in a studio, a lot of music is not recorded live anymore, it's all pieced together to make a song. It is just part of the now movement, I want everything now and if I have to wait 5 minutes that's 4 minutes too long. 

We don't listen with a dynamic range of 120-130dB, 24bit audio pushes to like 140dB, that's like the difference between absolute silence and a jet engine, that's inhuman we don't listen that way. And music is not intended to be reproduced like that either, anything over 95dB IMO is artificial, I think a CD/redbook is like 85-95dB max, LPs are 75-80dB. And can I hear 20Hz to 20kHz? No, none of us can especially the highs, unless we are a baby with brand new ears or a dog......but I still want all that and more because it exists in the live music, I want my system to have the ability to reproduce 10Hz to 50kHz, not because I can hear it but because I can feel it and adds to the sustain of a note. A cymbal crash can extend to over 80kHz and most brass, string, woodwind and other percussion instruments can reach 40kHz.......I remember reading a report of a sound testing lab from one of the California State universities measured instruments hitting over 100kHz....cra-cra!! It's there, we will never hear it but it adds the emotion, body sense and completes the music...
The CD is limited to 20kHz, so a lossy format. The LP has been pressed with upwards of 50kHz, playback gear to do that is not found at your local Walmart. Speakers are the culprit as tweeters are not built to play that high....My cartridge has a freq range of 10Hz to 50kHz, I'm not sure I need that but its there in case I do.

As far as the car CDP issue, I don't want one, I can buy a $10 64GB USB drive and load up 5,000 songs, do the math and tell me how many CDs I need to have in my car for that! Digital has been the best thing for portability, I mean you don't see anyone playing CDs on an airplane??? LOL So again, there is no reason to buy CDs, unless you only want them to rip for portability...which I do that.

Hey, listen how you like and however it makes you smile, that is the only thing that matters with music......!



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 10:36
^Nice post. Thumbs Up
If you like to read about such things might I recommend:

Perfecting Sound Forever - Greg Milner

An interesting history of chasing perfect sound.

The same thing is happening in video, 1080P, 4K, 8K.
I mean really, how good do they think my eyes are?


Edited by JD - December 23 2020 at 10:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 10:55
There must be cd's that were never put out on vinyl but not something I keep track of.
Regarding the format I love old original vinyl for the collectable aspects as well as the nostalgia thing.
I have a few reissues on better quality vinyl but I prefer the original when I can find one. For me it's about the old days and recapturing that feeling of getting that lp as it came out.
I play mostly cd's these days for two reasons...it's easier to slip it in the player and I play cd's in my car...hard to do with vinyl. Wink
As to sound quality..this is an old argument that has been on several threads in the past. I have no problem with cd sound...in fact on most they have a larger dynamic range ,more bass ,and sound 'louder'.
But I also like the way vinyl sounds and one can simply turn up the volume if need be...the only trouble is that some old vinyl was not made that well or has suffered abuse with time. If I don't have a clean copy I will resort to playing the cd....but I love the artwork, covers, etc on vinyl.
One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 10:57
 CDs are still outselling vinyls 5 to 1, according to the industry, but it's clear that the industry prefers selling vinyls because of a wider profit margin. Taking advantage of the public's gullibity, I guess.


I remember about a couple of months ago or so there was this big news that for the first time since the 80's vinyl was outselling cds. Has it changed since then? Maybe but I kind of doubt it. 
When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 10:59
Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

^Nice post. Thumbs Up
If you like to read about such things might I recommend:

Perfecting Sound Forever - Greg Milner

An interesting history of chasing perfect sound.

The same thing is happening in video, 1080P, 4K, 8K.
I mean really, how good do they think my eyes are?
Ha!!! Good enough to reach into your wallet and pull out that Platinum American Express card you got JD for that 8K TV....come on brother, give it up u got it!! Clap LOL

Merry Christmas my friend!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 11:04
Happy Ho-Ho man ! Beer
Thank you for supporting independently produced music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 14:00
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:


We went from AAA to AAD to ADD to DDD , and recently vinyls have made it DDA and maybe even DAA, but once a D is in the equation (no matter where), the interest for analog/vinyl is purely in the mindframe (the hipster's mindframeConfusedLOL)
The first D will always be there, it's the next 2 that the digital industry has not been able to master (pun intended) well in the digital world. Recording in the studio should be digital, that has no effect on what we hear on CD, streaming or on LP, and a hipster has nothing to do with why records are in higher demand. ConfusedThe only thing they have created demand for is beard trimming equipment.....LOL

What digital has done to music is removed the emotion to recording in a studio, a lot of music is not recorded live anymore, it's all pieced together to make a song. It is just part of the now movement, I want everything now and if I have to wait 5 minutes that's 4 minutes too long. 


Well, that's what I'm saying: as soon as there is a D in the chain vinyl format becomes useless ... or at least superfluous.
You'd be surprised how mant vinyls are pressed from MP3

https://www.wsj.com/articles/why-vinyls ... 1500721202

Mmmhhj!!!.. Beard (and hair) trimming equipment is indeed the other hipster fixation, but the vinyl collection is the subsidiary question that sets apart the men from the hipipister LOLWink


Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

 CDs are still outselling vinyls 5 to 1, according to the industry, but it's clear that the industry prefers selling vinyls because of a wider profit margin. Taking advantage of the public's gullibity, I guess.


I remember about a couple of months ago or so there was this big news that for the first time since the 80's vinyl was outselling cds. Has it changed since then? Maybe but I kind of doubt it. 


Why is it when Trump opens his mouth, it gets imidiately classed as fake news, and when the bullsh*t comes from hipsterumps, it's treated as gospel? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 14:18
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

...
LOL So again, there is no reason to buy CDs, unless you only want them to rip for portability...which I do that.

Hey, listen how you like and however it makes you smile, that is the only thing that matters with music......!

Hi,

The only thing I can see might be an issue is that selling a CD seems to be harder, since we have gotten totally spoiled by the 99 Cents purchase 25 years ago. It was the beginning of the end for albums with more than "one song" ... and the CD costs a lot more than that.

The sad thing, and I think it is kinda hidden but visible in PA is how many people only know a band by one song they like, and they have not heard the CD ... and I'm willing to bet that a good 25% of the folks that voted for ANY BAND, did so without having even heard the full album. A great example is the other thread with people  that have not heard FISH on his own, and how he has matured, and disliked him in Marillion ... and his later material is superior to that by Marillion ... not that they are bad ... still very good ... but as I said, I would rather spend my 99 Cents on "The Rose of Damascus", than any song by Marillion in the past 5 years! And I have all the CD's by Marillion in the past 20 years and the last one was the one with the classical musicians which was fantastic, but was more about the MUSIC than the songs themselves.

All in all, you didn't buy the first 4 or 5 YES albums, or JETHRO TULL albums, or KING CRIMSON albums, or ELP albums, because of one song ... the whole album of theirs was worth it ... Lucky Man was great ... but the rest of the album was ... WOW of the highest order!

This is the problem, for me, with the 99 Cents thing, however, I think this may just be a CYCLE in the commercial sense .. as more artists make their decisions to not be looking for a "song" to sell for 99 Cents and create more valuable and important things.

But, there are things that are BEYOND the money ... that we are forgetting ... there is music out there, even in downloads (AND NOT ON CD) that are worth it ... I'm picking up the Reuter/Quaeschning thing that is 40 minutes long ... because it is amazingly fantastic and is almost a continuation and beautiful rendition of the early days Cosmic stuff that went on to create the Couriers, Tangerine Dream and many other bands. 

As soon as most people get off the cheap sell ... I think we will see changes ... and I think that "Progressive" will then stand up even better in its history, as the folks that just bought the 99 Cents song fade away!


Edited by moshkito - December 23 2020 at 14:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 23 2020 at 14:20
Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Sean Trane Sean Trane wrote:


We went from AAA to AAD to ADD to DDD , and recently vinyls have made it DDA and maybe even DAA, but once a D is in the equation (no matter where), the interest for analog/vinyl is purely in the mindframe (the hipster's mindframeConfusedLOL)
The first D will always be there, it's the next 2 that the digital industry has not been able to master (pun intended) well in the digital world. Recording in the studio should be digital, that has no effect on what we hear on CD, streaming or on LP, and a hipster has nothing to do with why records are in higher demand. ConfusedThe only thing they have created demand for is beard trimming equipment.....LOL

What digital has done to music is removed the emotion to recording in a studio, a lot of music is not recorded live anymore, it's all pieced together to make a song. It is just part of the now movement, I want everything now and if I have to wait 5 minutes that's 4 minutes too long. 


Well, that's what I'm saying: as soon as there is a D in the chain vinyl format becomes useless ... or at least superfluous.
You'd be surprised how mant vinyls are pressed from MP3


Mmmhhj!!!.. Beard (and hair) trimming equipment is indeed the other hipster fixation, but the vinyl collection is the subsidiary question that sets apart the men from the hipipister LOLWink


Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

 CDs are still outselling vinyls 5 to 1, according to the industry, but it's clear that the industry prefers selling vinyls because of a wider profit margin. Taking advantage of the public's gullibity, I guess.


I remember about a couple of months ago or so there was this big news that for the first time since the 80's vinyl was outselling cds. Has it changed since then? Maybe but I kind of doubt it. 


Why is it when Trump opens his mouth, it gets imidiately classed as fake news, and when the bullsh*t comes from hipsterumps, it's treated as gospel? LOL

Well, it's not just the pitchfork website(if that's what you mean by hipsters). 

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/sep/14/vinyl-records-outsell-cds-in-us-for-first-time-since-1980s

https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2020/09/12/vinyl-records-outsold-cds-first-time-since-80-s/5781302002/

If you have information or have links to sources that prove the contrary I would love to see it. 

I see no reason why anyone would lie about something like this. ;) 

My only issue with it is that even if it is true it seems odd that more people would have turntables than cd players these days. Maybe people are just buying vinyl to seem cool or to use them as posters. Not sure. Then again I'm biased anyway being a cd person so it doesn't really make much difference to me either way. I hope you are right though because I don't want cds to go away.

Edit: Apparently this information is from the RIAA so I really don't see why they would lie about it. To them sales are sales; it probably makes no difference to them what is selling how much.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - December 23 2020 at 14:30
When you list all the qualities that you despise and you realize you're describing yourself.
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