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The Dark Elf View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2021 at 09:23
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Didn't Berry Oakley die in a motorcycle accident like Duane Allman?

After the death of Duane Allman, Oakley went into a spiral. According to his bandmates, "he excessively drank and consumed drugs, and was losing weight quickly." According to friends and family, he appeared to have lost "all hope, his heart, his drive, his ambition, [and] his direction" following Duane's death. "Everything Berry had envisioned for everybody—including the crew, the women and children—was shattered on the day Duane died, and he didn't care after that," said roadie Kim Payne. Oakley repeatedly wished to "get high, be high, and stay high," and everyone around him was concerned. He was inebriated when he crashed his bike.


Edited by The Dark Elf - January 24 2021 at 09:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldFriede Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2021 at 09:23
When taking LSD there is something extremely important you have to observe: Never, absolutely never, take it when you are feeling bad in some way. Also don't take it if you are afraid of taking it (a mistake Peter Gabriel made when he tried it). In both cases it will inevitably turn into a horror trip. The drug will extremely magnify your feelings, and combined with the hallucinations you will have it will be disastrous. Also make certain you are in positive surroundings when taking it, like being with friends; don't take it in places you don't like. Only ever take LSD when you are feeling perfectly fine and have a positive attitude to and expectancy of it and are in the right place.

I took LSD about a dozen times and always followed these rules. And it was always a very pleasant (albeit strange) experience.

Oh, and don't try to identify any music you hear while being on the trip; even music you have heard a thousand times will become totally unrecognizable.


Edited by BaldFriede - January 24 2021 at 09:30


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2021 at 16:41
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

I always believed that it was done INTENTIONALLY, since the "fans" were starting to "tell the Beatles" what they wanted, and it was a coup de grace .... that they decided and agreed to add something that ... "had no meaning" or "story" to tell ... an every day event ... and in a small way ... give us all the finger ... 

Interesting ! Giving a finger could well be part of what would motivate them to include it there... Now I doubt it because they did show interest for collages earlier, Carnival of Light being also exclusively made of them (the crimsonian mood there at 3'29 was a good surprise to me !) and one has to spend quite some time on editing tapes. R9 has more life in it, with bits contrasting with each other.

Apart from chants now and then and at the end, also gun noises, there seems to be little to do with revolution, maybe technological as well as political ?

The blured atmosphere, reverse parts create a feeling of "aspiration" (cf reversed tapes) otherwise it would feel like getting through all kind of moods in a sem-conscious state, with recurring bits... 

At 5'10 there could be a nice intro to some groovy power rock piece LOL...

R9 is like a lone island. Good Night wouldn't have the same flavour if we didn't listen to R9 before it... 


Edited by jayem - January 24 2021 at 16:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2021 at 18:21
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Didn't Berry Oakley die in a motorcycle accident like Duane Allman?

After the death of Duane Allman, Oakley went into a spiral. According to his bandmates, "he excessively drank and consumed drugs, and was losing weight quickly." According to friends and family, he appeared to have lost "all hope, his heart, his drive, his ambition, [and] his direction" following Duane's death. "Everything Berry had envisioned for everybody—including the crew, the women and children—was shattered on the day Duane died, and he didn't care after that," said roadie Kim Payne. Oakley repeatedly wished to "get high, be high, and stay high," and everyone around him was concerned. He was inebriated when he crashed his bike.

Didn't another member of the Allman Brothers crash a bike and sustain a broken leg after Berry's death? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2021 at 05:53
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

...
And I never said drug use was the end all be all in rock compositions of The Beatles or in the making of The White Album, but stop canonizing musicians because historical facts simply show you are spewing bullsh*t.

Hi,

And, from the looks of it, you are glorifying the events that went on to take many folks in rock music ... and even though they were in "famous" groups, all it really says is that they had the large amounts of money with which to enjoy themselves ... however, I seriously doubt that many of them did it 24/7 ... and that many of them were not clear enough to be able to perform ... I think your view of this is jaded and religiously inclined, as something "bad" ... that killed some folks that we thought were our heroes and we loved the music, and work they did.

I have no heroes (don't need them!) and consequently do not look at many of these folks as "different" than you or I with the exception that they had the ability to score, probably more than we would and the quantities did them in, their emotional inner selves not withstanding.

In many cases, I think it was a study in motion (so to speak) and Jim Morrison is a good example, and I think he took many images he may have had to create his poetry and eventual lyrics for many of the pieces that The Doors did, but I also think that as an artist, he likely thought himself "caught" and stuck. This is always a serious issue for many artists ... they have to move on, not get stuck, and the record business was preventing the changes, for the sake of the money ... which the musicians were offered in lieu of the "art", it is very easy to say.

Many folks died naturally as well ... not just drugs, and pinpointing one factor is not right ... as the variety and quantity of people make for us to be making "examples" of some folks, for something being bad ... and it is not for me to judge their state and their personal doings ... I don't sit here and say that Jerry should have quit, specially as he was diabetic ... but his music, generally speaking, did not suffer, specially when he went on his solo/duet things ... and yet ... yeah, he fell as well, but I'm betting that diabetes had more to do with it than the drug, even though he was well known for it. 

And there is no "bullpucky" in what we say ... I was born into a literary family, and I could easily tell you that Hemingway was a drunk, that Sartre was a stoner (and then some!) and Marquez was too ripped, and many others ... and they lived their life just fine. And their art survived and is well known ... but you choose to find "examples" that prove your point, rather than admit ... heck, in a larger social context, it would not have mattered if they were NOT "famous" ... heck, like saying many in NY, LA, SF, Chicago, even Detroit did not die trying to get "there" as an artist, or musician.

We both see similar things from different sides. I don't see many of these folks as druggies ... I see them as unhappy in some ways ... and the drugs may have magnified that even more ... but saying that it was the main cause of this and that, is basically like saying ... there is no person and no art ... and that is simply not fair or right!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2021 at 09:07
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

...
And I never said drug use was the end all be all in rock compositions of The Beatles or in the making of The White Album, but stop canonizing musicians because historical facts simply show you are spewing bullsh*t.

Hi,

And, from the looks of it, you are glorifying the events that went on to take many folks in rock music ... and even though they were in "famous" groups, all it really says is that they had the large amounts of money with which to enjoy themselves ... however, I seriously doubt that many of them did it 24/7 ... and that many of them were not clear enough to be able to perform ... I think your view of this is jaded and religiously inclined, as something "bad" ... that killed some folks that we thought were our heroes and we loved the music, and work they did.

I have no heroes (don't need them!) and consequently do not look at many of these folks as "different" than you or I with the exception that they had the ability to score, probably more than we would and the quantities did them in, their emotional inner selves not withstanding.

In many cases, I think it was a study in motion (so to speak) and Jim Morrison is a good example, and I think he took many images he may have had to create his poetry and eventual lyrics for many of the pieces that The Doors did, but I also think that as an artist, he likely thought himself "caught" and stuck. This is always a serious issue for many artists ... they have to move on, not get stuck, and the record business was preventing the changes, for the sake of the money ... which the musicians were offered in lieu of the "art", it is very easy to say.

Many folks died naturally as well ... not just drugs, and pinpointing one factor is not right ... as the variety and quantity of people make for us to be making "examples" of some folks, for something being bad ... and it is not for me to judge their state and their personal doings ... I don't sit here and say that Jerry should have quit, specially as he was diabetic ... but his music, generally speaking, did not suffer, specially when he went on his solo/duet things ... and yet ... yeah, he fell as well, but I'm betting that diabetes had more to do with it than the drug, even though he was well known for it. 

And there is no "bullpucky" in what we say ... I was born into a literary family, and I could easily tell you that Hemingway was a drunk, that Sartre was a stoner (and then some!) and Marquez was too ripped, and many others ... and they lived their life just fine. And their art survived and is well known ... but you choose to find "examples" that prove your point, rather than admit ... heck, in a larger social context, it would not have mattered if they were NOT "famous" ... heck, like saying many in NY, LA, SF, Chicago, even Detroit did not die trying to get "there" as an artist, or musician.

We both see similar things from different sides. I don't see many of these folks as druggies ... I see them as unhappy in some ways ... and the drugs may have magnified that even more ... but saying that it was the main cause of this and that, is basically like saying ... there is no person and no art ... and that is simply not fair or right!

Rather than editing this muddled bunch of errant rambling down to its essence (which could best be exemplified by a turd emoji followed by a series of question marks), I'll just repost this meandering block of senseless mewling for posterity. 

I was not glorifying anything, dolt; as a matter of fact I was demystifying your silly mythologizing of art. Many of the artists you want to canonize were stoned out of their minds in the late 60s -- and Morrison was the bacchanalian exemplar of spouting drug-tinged Huxley while grabbing his crotch.

What you typed does not make sense, is not in context and misses the point altogether.


Edited by The Dark Elf - January 25 2021 at 09:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2021 at 12:44
I must say that I find it extraordinary that someone as filthy drunk as Morrison could write such poetic lyrics. Then again, many great poets were Ulstermen, so perhaps it's not so unusual after all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2021 at 13:19
Getting back to Revolution 9 from the White Lp...when we played it in college (fall of '69....it came out in fall of '68), we usually skipped over that track unless we were too high or lazy to get up to change the vinyl.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2021 at 14:00
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I must say that I find it extraordinary that someone as filthy drunk as Morrison could write such poetic lyrics. Then again, many great poets were Ulstermen, so perhaps it's not so unusual after all.
Brendan Behan, the great Irish playwright, was once commissioned by Guinness to come up with a new slogan for their beer. As part of the payment he was given a couple kegs of Guinness. After several weeks and no reply from Behan, a beer executive visited the flower of Irish poetry. The kegs were empty, and Behan gave the exec the slogan: "Guinness makes you drunk."

Needless to say, Guinness moved on without Behan.


Edited by The Dark Elf - January 25 2021 at 16:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 25 2021 at 14:20
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I must say that I find it extraordinary that someone as filthy drunk as Morrison could write such poetic lyrics. Then again, many great poets were Ulstermen, so perhaps it's not so unusual after all.

Brendan Behan, the great Irish playwright was once commissioned by Guinness to come up with a new slogan for their beer. As part of the payment he was given a couple kegs of Guinness. After several weeks and no reply from Behan, a beer executive visited the flower of Irish poetry. The kegs were empty, and Behan gave the exec the slogan: "Guinness makes you drunk."

Needless to say, Guinness moved on without Behan.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Intruder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2021 at 11:38
#9 has to be put in its proper place and time - of course it sounds like a disaster to 21st century ears, but for many folks, plonking the needle down and hearing THAT come out of the speakers was either a revelation or, as I guess John expected of most, a revolution.  It's all nonsense now but take a little trip back....

Either that or, like Dr. Wu and his friends and, I confess, like me and mine, the whole thing was appreciated and had its time, but pressing on to heavier matters was always the reason we skipped it.  


Edited by Intruder - January 27 2021 at 11:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2021 at 13:07
reply to a post that was modified later, making that one redundant (without warning of course...)

Edited by jayem - January 29 2021 at 05:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 27 2021 at 13:22
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:


I must say that I find it extraordinary that someone as filthy drunk as Morrison could write such poetic lyrics. Then again, many great poets were Ulstermen, so perhaps it's not so unusual after all.

Brendan Behan, the great Irish playwright, was once commissioned by Guinness to come up with a new slogan for their beer. As part of the payment he was given a couple kegs of Guinness. After several weeks and no reply from Behan, a beer executive visited the flower of Irish poetry. The kegs were empty, and Behan gave the exec the slogan: "Guinness makes you drunk."

Needless to say, Guinness moved on without Behan.

The great William Butler Yeats would not be amused.

Edited by SteveG - January 27 2021 at 13:28
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 08:07
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

...
I was not glorifying anything, dolt; as a matter of fact I was demystifying your silly mythologizing of art. Many of the artists you want to canonize were stoned out of their minds in the late 60s -- and Morrison was the bacchanalian exemplar of spouting drug-tinged Huxley while grabbing his crotch.
...
Hi,

Again, you are saying that this particular "state" for any person can not be productive, or help create new poems, songs, or art.

I would think that you are more into "songs" and that you do not believe in art ... well, let me tell you, my dolt'ish friend ... ART has a history ... not many songs do, and we try to create a history for them ... just so we can justify our points.

Jim, could be said to be a sort of more modern "Huxley" ... if rock music folks were educated enough to even know what that meant ... but you are all into "songs" that don't mean a whole lot more than clever jingles and silly lyrics and evasive and morose songs about love, sex and rock'n'roll.

Rock music is one of the great arts of the 20th century ... but you'll never wake up to that!


Edited by moshkito - February 04 2021 at 08:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 08:15
Again, I really didn't start this thread to make people get personal on each other...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 08:24
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Again, I really didn't start this thread to make people get personal on each other...

Hi,

Understood ... and I tried to stay on thread by explaining what I saw in it ... which to me, from a literary, or artistic sense, makes a lot more sense than the majority of rock songs and their inane and pathetic lyrics ... and when someone was intelligent enough to create something that really had more to say ... a TRUE and QUITE ALIVE .... "A Day in Life" ... all of a sudden you  get a bunch of top five'rs complaining about what a bunch of trash it all was. As if Andy Warhol was not making fun of something similar ... a tomato soup can ... give it a break ... it was a time for a reflection of what "art" really meant ... and the BEATLES gave us something that to this day we REFUSE to accept, and instead go around talking about grandiose meanings of the songs (hello Ian, Jon, Gen ... etc!!!) and don't even compare to the REALITY of things right in front of our noses ... and in this particular case a small tape recorder being taken for a pooh ride as if it were a doggie, and walking past a stadium, etc, etc, and stopping at the walk/wait sign at the corner and hearing everyone talking ... and whatever else is heard!

It's so simple, that you can do this yourself ... but we sit here and think that it is trash just because we could do it? Doesn't say much for the ability and creativity of the human spirit ... does it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 08:25
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

...
I was not glorifying anything, dolt; as a matter of fact I was demystifying your silly mythologizing of art. Many of the artists you want to canonize were stoned out of their minds in the late 60s -- and Morrison was the bacchanalian exemplar of spouting drug-tinged Huxley while grabbing his crotch.
...

Again, you are saying that this particular "state" for any person can not be productive, or help create new poems, songs, or art.

I would think that you are more into "songs" and that you do not believe in art ... well, let me tell you, my dolt'ish friend ... ART has a history ... not many songs do, and we try to create a history for them ... just so we can justify our points.

Jim, could be said to be a sort of more modern "Huxley" ... if rock music folks were educated enough to even know what that meant ... but you are all into "songs" that don't mean a whole lot more than clever jingles and silly lyrics and evasive and morose songs about love, sex and rock'n'roll.

Rock music is one of the great arts of the 20th century ... but you'll never wake up to that!
Take your meds, grandpa, you're sundowning and it's not even noon. What I find uniquely f*cking stupid about your rambles is that I referred to "Huxley" in the first place, but you have the pomposity to believe you alone are educated enough to know what I was referring to, which is hilarious because you can't even type a coherent sentence.

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Again, I really didn't start this thread to make people get personal on each other...
This has been going on for a decade. Don't take it personally. Pompous windbags need harpooning.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 08:42
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's so simple, that you can do this yourself ... but we sit here and think that it is trash just because we could do it?


My view is that maybe everyone can do it - from a purely technical perspective - but someone has to get the idea first. This is really what matters. It also matters how you do it. To make it artistically interesting, you have to have a clear vision about how you use the sounds. If someone else than John Lennon and Yoko Ono made a sound collage of the same tapes that are used in Revolution 9, it would have been a completely different piece.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 08:44
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Again, I really didn't start this thread to make people get personal on each other...

Hi,

Understood ... and I tried to stay on thread by explaining what I saw in it ... which to me, from a literary, or artistic sense, makes a lot more sense than the majority of rock songs and their inane and pathetic lyrics ... and when someone was intelligent enough to create something that really had more to say ... a TRUE and QUITE ALIVE .... "A Day in Life" ... all of a sudden you  get a bunch of top five'rs complaining about what a bunch of trash it all was. As if Andy Warhol was not making fun of something similar ... a tomato soup can ... give it a break ... it was a time for a reflection of what "art" really meant ... and the BEATLES gave us something that to this day we REFUSE to accept, and instead go around talking about grandiose meanings of the songs (hello Ian, Jon, Gen ... etc!!!) and don't even compare to the REALITY of things right in front of our noses ... and in this particular case a small tape recorder being taken for a pooh ride as if it were a doggie, and walking past a stadium, etc, etc, and stopping at the walk/wait sign at the corner and hearing everyone talking ... and whatever else is heard!

It's so simple, that you can do this yourself ... but we sit here and think that it is trash just because we could do it? Doesn't say much for the ability and creativity of the human spirit ... does it?
OK I'm probably going to regret this but I have to ask - what's a "pooh ride"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 14:20
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

It's so simple, that you can do this yourself ... but we sit here and think that it is trash just because we could do it?


My view is that maybe everyone can do it - from a purely technical perspective - but someone has to get the idea first. This is really what matters. It also matters how you do it. To make it artistically interesting, you have to have a clear vision about how you use the sounds. If someone else than John Lennon and Yoko Ono made a sound collage of the same tapes that are used in Revolution 9, it would have been a completely different piece.

Hi,

Not quite right ... one of the great things in the arts in the 60's and 70's was not "an idea" ... it was truely and completely improvisational, and this is the part that fans these days have a hard time relating to ... Damo in CAN doing what he did ... Kinski in Herzog's films doing what he did ... pure improvisation by feeling ... and not quite an "idea" ... the point was ... TO BE ... and above all to "Let It Be" ... something that we no longer believe in anyway.

You do not, and never have, needed a "clear vision" about how to use the sounds ... and rock music, just like jazz music (hello Miles) ... has shown that it can be done without an "idea" ... but we have this illusory thought that we have to have meaning in order to do this and that ... and it is just an idea that we have created to make ourselves feel better about ourselves, which in the end is an illusion, if you do enough inner spiritual meditation and study things further than just rhetorical words that have no meaning whatsoever, for the most part.

If you look at the tomato soup can (Warhol) ... it was not about the idea ... but he was clever enough to show ... that your reaction to it ... had nothing to do with anything (even art!) ... and he did this in film too ... how about over 20 or 30 (don't remember how long) of 2 people sleeping in the same bed ... not a single touch or movement ... 

I always call it, the late 60's and early 70's the "deconstruction of meaning" ... and how it can sideline and confuse us ... "ideas" and "meanings" is something that we can discuss over tea ... but considering them "real" and important to life ... is insane ... and I like to joke ... how religious of that person to think so ... they have to have a book tell them how to feel! Instead of finding out for yourself!

Revolution #9, is sadly ... usually disliked by the very folks that love "songs" ... and do not spend their time finding music in your everyday world ... all 24 hours of it ... as I like to say ... where is your art? 

Let me say that it is not an idea ... it is a reality!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... now, where is your own art? An idea? www.pedrosena.com
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