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The Anders View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2021 at 16:20
I don't really buy that premise because basically, if there is no idea or vision, it woud mean that everything improvised is equally great; and clearly it is not. Even Damo Suzuki would have to decide how to improvise; had he chosen to roar like a lion or sing in an operatic way during, say, "Pinch" or "Halleluwah", the overall result would probably have been insufferable.

I get that some artists might deny they have any ideas - and it wouldn't surprise me that some acidheads of the late 60's thought so - but I don't believe them. They may not acknowledge the ideas themselves, or be aware of them, but it doesn't mean they are not there.


Edited by The Anders - February 04 2021 at 16:21
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2021 at 03:02
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Revolution #9, is sadly ... usually disliked by the very folks that love "songs" 

Well I know you can't post anything without mentioning your current obsession with people listening to "songs" but I wouldn't describe Revolution #9 as a "song" in the traditional sense. It's not something you can sing or play on the guitar, it's a collection of sounds that needs to be listened to. It's not surprising that fans of Beatle "songs" don't like it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2021 at 04:32
The flame war herein is a bit like the original topic. Quasi-experimental and kinda totally random. And bringing lots of bad feeling. A bit more entertaining though. Skipped some content admittedly.

9 was a nearly and intended to be interesting experiment that should've been shelved or edited. Credit to the Beatles for trying new things but not exactly playing to their strengths. And they left off Harrison's numbers for this? As daft as leaving Don't Let Me Down off some versions of Let It Be. 9 has no structure, direction or point. Very anthology worthy. George Martin thought the White Album would've made a great single LP and as usual he was right.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2021 at 10:13
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I don't really buy that premise because basically, if there is no idea or vision, it woud mean that everything improvised is equally great; and clearly it is not. Even Damo Suzuki would have to decide how to improvise; had he chosen to roar like a lion or sing in an operatic way during, say, "Pinch" or "Halleluwah", the overall result would probably have been insufferable.
...

Hi,

With all due respect, you apparently think that "improvisation" has no place in the arts, and I would like to remind you that you are incorrect in that assessment ... the point being that it is "normally" an improvised moment that creates the changes that affect a lot of work.

You can not have an idea during an improvisation, because that says you are paying attention to your MIND, not to the exercise and situation at hand ... you seem to think that "improvisation" is about us all being plain monkeys in the zoo ... and that is not true at all ... and if you ever studied or knew more about film, music and theater, and how it has evolved, the past 70 years has been about how a lot of improvisation brought out so much work and arts ... so you really think that Pollack had to think about how his pee would improve his painting? You gotta be kidding ... it is a spur of the moment thing, and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THINKING at all. So you really think that Miles had an idea of what he was going to do ... he tells you in his special (Hulu I think it was?), that he had no idea and the moment would show itself then!

TAGO MAGO, for many of us, would probably be insufferable, SPECIALLY when Holger's comments were that it was randomly taken from some 20 hours of material ... but then, you are not having fun like FAUST did ... and showed it, too! ... on the special ... when one of them sets about going to play with drumsticks on various cement mixers ... and called it music ... every thing was music to him.

Another example of "pure" improvisation, is to watch Klaus Kinski, in the last 10/15 minutes of AGUIRRE, THE WRATH OF GOD ... it was simply scripted in half a page, and yet, one actor did his thing, and Werner Herzog could not help keep on filming it (looks like he had 2 or 3 cameras going all the time -- though I can not script the turn arounds at all!) ... because it was so good and well done ... Klaus was not, at that time, an actor in the stage and film sense ... he kinda belonged to the free form "LIVING THEATER" and the many other examples floating around Europe at that time (ohhh and NY did a revival of MUSIC MAN again at the
time!!!) that were live theater experimenting as it went along. And even worse, you can watch Godard, Truffaut and a few "new wave" film makers in France that gave you more improvisations that you can imagine ... and Godard was insane ... it wasn't just the actors ... it was also the camera ... the sound ... anything he thought of, and would even speak over with actual meaning or not.

You can NOT script a lot of that stuff ... it's life is very "small" and it only lives in that second and your mind and mine can not "think ahead" as to what is going to happen for you to be able to "formulate" an idea of what you are going to say ... that is truly insane ... and often insensitive, since it will be more likely that the comment won't even fit, and would be out of sorts with the actual goings on ... 

I invite you to go read about "improvisation" as my book as a few years before it is done, but you are completely denying a lot of material at the Fillmore and many other places in jazz and rock, where the idea of the music was "to live" ... and it can not live with "ideas" ... it can only live in the present time and second that things are happening!


Edited by moshkito - February 05 2021 at 10:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2021 at 10:33
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

...
9 was a nearly and intended to be interesting experiment that should've been shelved or edited. Credit to the Beatles for trying new things but not exactly playing to their strengths. And they left off Harrison's numbers for this? As daft as leaving Don't Let Me Down off some versions of Let It Be. 9 has no structure, direction or point. ...

Hi,

If you hear the 7 Christmas shows that the Beatles did for their fan club, you will find that there are a lot of individual things and tastes flowing ... and if you listen to all 7 in one night, you can see how their relationship begun falling apart ... first getting weird, and then in the last show, at least one of them does not show up at all.

I think that their "strengths" were now synthesizing to something they each wanted to do on their own ... the LET IT BE bootlegs (there were over 20 of them with various versions and details!) ... showed that they were already on the fritz when it comes to playing together, and helping put together something strong and valuable ... and the WHITE ALBUM, I always thought was an idea, that could have been similar to UMMAGUMMA (much later!) ... which was a sort of one side for each member on the LP.  So, in this sense, GM was right, but he knew that his ability to curtail their individual rights and desires, was going to be a serious issue ... and it only went on to give us one more album which was, likely, their best.

That REVOLUTION #9 has no structure, direction or point ... is an important comment on the state of things ... I keep telling you guys get  portable recorder, go downtown and turn it on as you walk a few blocks and make sure you go past a stadium and a few other public events ... like a small demonstration for the "Society of the Small Angels", complete with posters and what not ... etc, etc, etc ... and when you go home and listen to it ... THERE IS NO STRUCTURE, THERE IS NO DIRECTION AND THERE IS NO POINT ... except one that fits all three ... that we ignored ... YOU ... did go for that walk, and saying that those three elements did not occur to you  when you decided to just turn on the recorder, ends up making things weird, and more difficult to discuss.

I believe it was intentional and that all of them agreed to it ... though you and I probably think that George would never do that, and Paul could not make it sound like Michelle, and Ringo could not figure out how to use his drums ... but John ... he didn't care and did it anyway. And while many dislike it, still, it is one of the best statements about the "art" of the rock music bands, and how so many people make too much hullaballoo about nothing ... of course, including daily events!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2021 at 11:16
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I don't really buy that premise because basically, if there is no idea or vision, it woud mean that everything improvised is equally great; and clearly it is not. Even Damo Suzuki would have to decide how to improvise; had he chosen to roar like a lion or sing in an operatic way during, say, "Pinch" or "Halleluwah", the overall result would probably have been insufferable.
...

Hi,

 
BYE,


Edited by SteveG - February 05 2021 at 11:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2021 at 12:31
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


That REVOLUTION #9 has no structure, direction or point ... is an important comment on the state of things ... I keep telling you guys get  portable recorder, go downtown and turn it on as you walk a few blocks and make sure you go past a stadium and a few other public events ... like a small demonstration for the "Society of the Small Angels", complete with posters and what not ... etc, etc, etc ... and when you go home and listen to it ... THERE IS NO STRUCTURE, THERE IS NO DIRECTION AND THERE IS NO POINT ... except one that fits all three ... that we ignored ... YOU ... did go for that walk, and saying that those three elements did not occur to you  when you decided to just turn on the recorder, ends up making things weird, and more difficult to discuss.


Thumbs Up I hadn't thought of the recording process. Then they'd try several sequences maybe they'd go out for more takes and edit further, until the result did "flow"...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 05 2021 at 17:27
Moshkito, I think we just have a different concept of what idea and vision actually means. Judging by what you are writing, I think I understand it in a broader sense. For me an idea can be something you come up with spontaneously in a jam session.

I can improvise too. I can make up a lot of stuff on the spot on a piano and then forget all about it after 20 minutes (unless I record it of course), but I still count it as ideas. Deciding to be 'not thinking' while improvising is also an idea in itself.


Edited by The Anders - February 05 2021 at 17:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 03:54
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

...
9 was a nearly and intended to be interesting experiment that should've been shelved or edited. Credit to the Beatles for trying new things but not exactly playing to their strengths. And they left off Harrison's numbers for this? As daft as leaving Don't Let Me Down off some versions of Let It Be. 9 has no structure, direction or point. ...

Hi,

If you hear the 7 Christmas shows that the Beatles did for their fan club, you will find that there are a lot of individual things and tastes flowing ... and if you listen to all 7 in one night, you can see how their relationship begun falling apart ... first getting weird, and then in the last show, at least one of them does not show up at all.

I think that their "strengths" were now synthesizing to something they each wanted to do on their own ... the LET IT BE bootlegs (there were over 20 of them with various versions and details!) ... showed that they were already on the fritz when it comes to playing together, and helping put together something strong and valuable ... and the WHITE ALBUM, I always thought was an idea, that could have been similar to UMMAGUMMA (much later!) ... which was a sort of one side for each member on the LP.  So, in this sense, GM was right, but he knew that his ability to curtail their individual rights and desires, was going to be a serious issue ... and it only went on to give us one more album which was, likely, their best.

That REVOLUTION #9 has no structure, direction or point ... is an important comment on the state of things ... I keep telling you guys get  portable recorder, go downtown and turn it on as you walk a few blocks and make sure you go past a stadium and a few other public events ... like a small demonstration for the "Society of the Small Angels", complete with posters and what not ... etc, etc, etc ... and when you go home and listen to it ... THERE IS NO STRUCTURE, THERE IS NO DIRECTION AND THERE IS NO POINT ... except one that fits all three ... that we ignored ... YOU ... did go for that walk, and saying that those three elements did not occur to you  when you decided to just turn on the recorder, ends up making things weird, and more difficult to discuss.

I believe it was intentional and that all of them agreed to it ... though you and I probably think that George would never do that, and Paul could not make it sound like Michelle, and Ringo could not figure out how to use his drums ... but John ... he didn't care and did it anyway. And while many dislike it, still, it is one of the best statements about the "art" of the rock music bands, and how so many people make too much hullaballoo about nothing ... of course, including daily events!



I see I was not clear. 9 has no beginning, middle, end. Musical form even, or especially in musique concrete is vital. Especially for such a length of time. A few features to stimulate interest are always welcome.

It is as though the above walk was taken and this recording is like a piece of litter stick to one's shoe.

Oh well, it could be worse. It could be 40 minutes worth.

I wonder how people might've reacted had edits been used in between tracks instead, or even as well as the final edit.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 07:00
^Your were clear but even if that piece was meant to deride anyone who'd actually care about it, I enjoy it the same... I like the quiet mood at the beginning, the "number nine" is somewhat humorous, then various crowdy moods with some quietness back now and then, some raise of tension. The end with those rioting sounds must refer to a "revolution", now if one removes it and finds another name for the piece I won't mind at all... There's nothing all throughout the piece that would make one think of any revolution LOL

Since there's a huge number of beatlemaniacs around, I trust the Wikipedia page to have been cleansed of false infos, so I content myself of infos there on how it was made, and how seriously one should take it...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_9


Edited by jayem - February 07 2021 at 12:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 07:07
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I don't really buy that premise because basically, if there is no idea or vision, it woud mean that everything improvised is equally great; and clearly it is not. Even Damo Suzuki would have to decide how to improvise; had he chosen to roar like a lion or sing in an operatic way during, say, "Pinch" or "Halleluwah", the overall result would probably have been insufferable.
...

Hi,

With all due respect, you apparently think that "improvisation" has no place in the arts, and I would like to remind you that you are incorrect in that assessment ... the point being that it is "normally" an improvised moment that creates the changes that affect a lot of work.

You can not have an idea during an improvisation, because that says you are paying attention to your MIND, not to the exercise and situation at hand ... you seem to think that "improvisation" is about us all being plain monkeys in the zoo ... and that is not true at all ... and if you ever studied or knew more about film, music and theater, and how it has evolved, the past 70 years has been about how a lot of improvisation brought out so much work and arts ... so you really think that Pollack had to think about how his pee would improve his painting? You gotta be kidding ... it is a spur of the moment thing, and has NOTHING TO DO WITH THINKING at all. So you really think that Miles had an idea of what he was going to do ... he tells you in his special (Hulu I think it was?), that he had no idea and the moment would show itself then!

TAGO MAGO, for many of us, would probably be insufferable, SPECIALLY when Holger's comments were that it was randomly taken from some 20 hours of material ... but then, you are not having fun like FAUST did ... and showed it, too! ... on the special ... when one of them sets about going to play with drumsticks on various cement mixers ... and called it music ... every thing was music to him.

Another example of "pure" improvisation, is to watch Klaus Kinski, in the last 10/15 minutes of AGUIRRE, THE WRATH OF GOD ... it was simply scripted in half a page, and yet, one actor did his thing, and Werner Herzog could not help keep on filming it (looks like he had 2 or 3 cameras going all the time -- though I can not script the turn arounds at all!) ... because it was so good and well done ... Klaus was not, at that time, an actor in the stage and film sense ... he kinda belonged to the free form "LIVING THEATER" and the many other examples floating around Europe at that time (ohhh and NY did a revival of MUSIC MAN again at the
time!!!) that were live theater experimenting as it went along. And even worse, you can watch Godard, Truffaut and a few "new wave" film makers in France that gave you more improvisations that you can imagine ... and Godard was insane ... it wasn't just the actors ... it was also the camera ... the sound ... anything he thought of, and would even speak over with actual meaning or not.

You can NOT script a lot of that stuff ... it's life is very "small" and it only lives in that second and your mind and mine can not "think ahead" as to what is going to happen for you to be able to "formulate" an idea of what you are going to say ... that is truly insane ... and often insensitive, since it will be more likely that the comment won't even fit, and would be out of sorts with the actual goings on ... 

I invite you to go read about "improvisation" as my book as a few years before it is done, but you are completely denying a lot of material at the Fillmore and many other places in jazz and rock, where the idea of the music was "to live" ... and it can not live with "ideas" ... it can only live in the present time and second that things are happening!

I think you're too radical here and I'm more with The Anders. The Buddhists know a lot about the problems with thinking, and they also know how hard or even impossible it is to switch it off. Surely one could measure that, technically, the mind is still at work during improvisation. What happens comes from somewhere. The Buddhists teach that you can't switch off the mind, you can just put yourself at a distance and let it do its stuff, without getting entangled with it. But you've got to watch it, otherwise it may take over without your realising it.

Czukay and Schmidt were highly academically trained, Liebezeit was an experienced professional with a wide range of musical experience. Karoli probably not that much (but Czukay was his teacher), and I don't know about Damo, but there was a lot of background to their improvisations and it shows. The Beatles were very intellectually curious, Lennon had *ideas* inspired by the avantgarde stuff he got into for sure (I'd assume the same for Chris Karrer, Falk Rogner, and others in Amon Düül II; Chris had all this interest for Sufi and Eastern culture, these things don't happen in a vacuum).

There is a role of non-thinking in the sense of letting onself go and go with what comes up inside and outside at any moment in present, but thought will happen and cannot be stopped and suppressed, and needs to be used constructively in an integrated way - it needs to be stopped from taking over, but it will still be there, and will play its role.  


Edited by Lewian - February 07 2021 at 07:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Anders Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 07:07
I clearly think it does have a structure. Maybe it doesn't have a classic kind of form, but the moment a piece has a beginning and an end, and different things are happening in between which provide changes to the soundscape - which is clearly the case - it fits my definition of a structure. Be it intended or not. Tape loops are faded in and out; they arrive, then disappear for some time, and then come back later. That itself should add structure.

I also think it should be easy to make sense out of it. The soundscape is chaotic, and so you could say if reflects a chaotic world. For a start, there are sounds of bombs and gun shootings, as well as people protesting...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 07:10
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:



I see I was not clear. 9 has no beginning, middle, end. Musical form even, or especially in musique concrete is vital. Especially for such a length of time. A few features to stimulate interest are always welcome.

It is as though the above walk was taken and this recording is like a piece of litter stick to one's shoe.

Oh well, it could be worse. It could be 40 minutes worth.

I wonder how people might've reacted had edits been used in between tracks instead, or even as well as the final edit.


For people like me into avantgarde experimental music, often improvised, it sure makes a lot of sense, despite the lack of beginning, middle, end, form, as you put it. You may not get the interest but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get.


Edited by Lewian - February 07 2021 at 07:10
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 07:12
Originally posted by The Anders The Anders wrote:

I clearly think it does have a structure. Maybe it doesn't have a classic kind of form, but the moment a piece has a beginning and an end, and different things are happening in between which provide changes to the soundscape - which is clearly the case - it fits my definition of a structure. Be it intended or not. Tape loops are faded in and out; they arrive, then disappear for some time, and then come back later. That itself should add structure.

I also think it should be easy to make sense out of it. The soundscape is chaotic, and so you could say if reflects a chaotic world. For a start, there are sounds of bombs and gun shootings, as well as people protesting...

Great minds...or as the Germans say, "two idiots, one thought." Tongue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 10:56
Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

...
I see I was not clear. 9 has no beginning, middle, end. Musical form even, or especially in musique concrete is vital. Especially for such a length of time. A few features to stimulate interest are always welcome.
...

Jean Luc Godard .... everything (art, film, mostly) has a beginning, middle and end ... not necessarily in that order. (paraphrased ... because folks still don't believe that there were arts that were experimenting).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 11:06
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by uduwudu uduwudu wrote:

...
I see I was not clear. 9 has no beginning, middle, end. Musical form even, or especially in musique concrete is vital. Especially for such a length of time. A few features to stimulate interest are always welcome.
...

Jean Luc Godard .... everything (art, film, mostly) has a beginning, middle and end ... not necessarily in that order. (paraphrased ... because folks still don't believe that there were arts that were experimenting).

There is a brief bit of conversation after the "Can you take me back" excerpt - it features Alistair Taylor and George Martin discussing a bottle of claret. According to Wikipedia (Revolution 9 - Wikipedia) this is not part of Revolution #9.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2021 at 11:13
I like Revolution #9 especially if played backwards. xd
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2021 at 02:27
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

I like Revolution #9 especially if played backwards. xd

It is said that if you play "number nine" backwards it sounds like "I am the devil, worship me" whereas in fact it sounds like "enin rebmun". 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote uduwudu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2021 at 03:10

[/QUOTE]
For people like me into avantgarde experimental music, often improvised, it sure makes a lot of sense, despite the lack of beginning, middle, end, form, as you put it. You may not get the interest but that doesn't mean it's impossible to get.
[/QUOTE]

I enjoy avante garde though composed music beats improv usually. e.g. Crimson do a lot of improv and one of the few prog bands that do. Prog rock is largely thought out structured music. Can recorded great ideas and T Dream (classic era) were more sublime than not.

I got Rev 9. First listen eons ago. It was not difficult to get. It's a tape collage. People are fascinated with it because it's the Beatles. Must confess to being more fascinated with people's fascination with the Beatles than their output. Associations. It's why people tolerate (I think...) Yoko Ono when she does her vocal thing. Were it not for that association where would she be...

My favourite moment of Beatles cleverness is the placement of the sublime A Day In The Life outside the holiday camp of Sgt Pepper. Brought the whimsy to a harsh reality. That was good...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Argo2112 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 08 2021 at 07:53
I wasn't really a big fan of this one. I haven't listened to it in many years. I have it on now as I'm reading these posts & I must say I'm finding it more interesting then I have in the past. 
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