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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 10:34
Thanks for the recommendations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 12:44
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Thanks for the recommendations.


Oh I’ve got plenty. Anytime. :)
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 15:25
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^There are plenty of 5.1 mixes that come without a box set. They are sold as Blu-ray only. I know you are an audiophile and prefer LP's, but how many surround mixes have you listened to? Two that stand out for me are Stupid Dream and TAAB Part II. Also, curious how much moolah do you have invested in your stereo system and have you acoustically treated your listening room? You need to invite me over to experience this sonic nirvana you brag about.
You are an audiophile too. Which only means you are looking to hear music as best you can achieve given whatever your budget is. People who spend uber (define uber) money are no more an audiophile than someone who does not spend uber (define uber) money.
I prefer LPs because that media gives me the most natural, dynamic and revealing experience with my music and its highly engaging.

Just go find a hi-fi audio store (not Best BuyThumbs Down) and go and listen to their systems, both digital and analog.

My music room, like probably 95% of most is in my home where there are things like sofas, carpet, drapery, door opening, hallways, windows and such so trying to treat a room is almost impossible. If I had a 4 sided equal room with no windows you can treat a room effectively with first reflection points.......I won't tell you how much I spent, that's between me and my spousal unit and bank account, it's a hobby so I pay cash for everything, never finance or credit that is cra-cra! Plus it's very very rare I pay MSRP, but I have no issue giving you a gear list of what I have.  

Parasound Halo Integrated Amp
Music Hall mmf-7.1 Turntable, upgraded tonearm Project 9cc all carbon fiber
Music Hall Cruise Control 2.0
Lyra Delos MC Cartridge
Musical Surroundings Nova II Phono Preamp
NAD C545BEE CD Player
Teac X2000R R2R
Rega RX5 Speakers
Dual SVS SB2000 Subwoofers

I think that's all of it....LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 15:58
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^There are plenty of 5.1 mixes that come without a box set. They are sold as Blu-ray only. I know you are an audiophile and prefer LP's, but how many surround mixes have you listened to? Two that stand out for me are Stupid Dream and TAAB Part II. Also, curious how much moolah do you have invested in your stereo system and have you acoustically treated your listening room? You need to invite me over to experience this sonic nirvana you brag about.
You are an audiophile too. Which only means you are looking to hear music as best you can achieve given whatever your budget is. People who spend uber (define uber) money are no more an audiophile than someone who does not spend uber (define uber) money.
I prefer LPs because that media gives me the most natural, dynamic and revealing experience with my music and its highly engaging.

Just go find a hi-fi audio store (not Best BuyThumbs Down) and go and listen to their systems, both digital and analog.

My music room, like probably 95% of most is in my home where there are things like sofas, carpet, drapery, door opening, hallways, windows and such so trying to treat a room is almost impossible. If I had a 4 sided equal room with no windows you can treat a room effectively with first reflection points.......I won't tell you how much I spent, that's between me and my spousal unit and bank account, it's a hobby so I pay cash for everything, never finance or credit that is cra-cra! Plus it's very very rare I pay MSRP, but I have no issue giving you a gear list of what I have.  

Parasound Halo Integrated Amp
Music Hall mmf-7.1 Turntable, upgraded tonearm Project 9cc all carbon fiber
Music Hall Cruise Control 2.0
Lyra Delos MC Cartridge
Musical Surroundings Nova II Phono Preamp
NAD C545BEE CD Player
Teac X2000R R2R
Rega RX5 Speakers
Dual SVS SB2000 Subwoofers

I think that's all of it....LOL

Holy crap!!! I don't know what any of this gear is but I Googled some of the prices. Even below MSRP price - congrats! What do you do for a living to afford this stellar equipment? Your cartridge alone costs more than my entire set-up, it must sound stellar. Does your spousal unit approve of your hobby?  Does she listen to those Lee Morgan LP's with you? Tongue

There is only one hi-fi audio store in my area and I'm sure they won't have any music I'm familiar with to play on their system, so it does me no good. And I can't afford it. They would probably kick me out for having long hair, wearing blue jeans, and beat-up Chuck Taylors. LOL

Just for you to get a laugh out of my system. This is what I have....

Dennon 2801 Receiver 
Oppo BDP-93 (Blu-ray player)
5 Paradigm Legend Speakers 








Edited by Grumpyprogfan - April 27 2021 at 16:01
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progbethyname View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 16:11
^ That OPPO player is quite good. You could start by building around that transport. It is solid.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 16:27
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ That OPPO player is quite good. You could start by building around that transport. It is solid.
Thanks, but unless I win the lottery, this is my "forever" set-up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 17:40
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ That OPPO player is quite good. You could start by building around that transport. It is solid.
Thanks, but unless I win the lottery, this is my "forever" set-up.


It took me 8 years to build up my headphone rig. I know it is expensive but it is obtainable.
Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 18:05
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^There are plenty of 5.1 mixes that come without a box set. They are sold as Blu-ray only. I know you are an audiophile and prefer LP's, but how many surround mixes have you listened to? Two that stand out for me are Stupid Dream and TAAB Part II. Also, curious how much moolah do you have invested in your stereo system and have you acoustically treated your listening room? You need to invite me over to experience this sonic nirvana you brag about.
You are an audiophile too. Which only means you are looking to hear music as best you can achieve given whatever your budget is. People who spend uber (define uber) money are no more an audiophile than someone who does not spend uber (define uber) money.
I prefer LPs because that media gives me the most natural, dynamic and revealing experience with my music and its highly engaging.

Just go find a hi-fi audio store (not Best BuyThumbs Down) and go and listen to their systems, both digital and analog.

My music room, like probably 95% of most is in my home where there are things like sofas, carpet, drapery, door opening, hallways, windows and such so trying to treat a room is almost impossible. If I had a 4 sided equal room with no windows you can treat a room effectively with first reflection points.......I won't tell you how much I spent, that's between me and my spousal unit and bank account, it's a hobby so I pay cash for everything, never finance or credit that is cra-cra! Plus it's very very rare I pay MSRP, but I have no issue giving you a gear list of what I have.  

Parasound Halo Integrated Amp
Music Hall mmf-7.1 Turntable, upgraded tonearm Project 9cc all carbon fiber
Music Hall Cruise Control 2.0
Lyra Delos MC Cartridge
Musical Surroundings Nova II Phono Preamp
NAD C545BEE CD Player
Teac X2000R R2R
Rega RX5 Speakers
Dual SVS SB2000 Subwoofers

I think that's all of it....LOL

Holy crap!!! I don't know what any of this gear is but I Googled some of the prices. Even below MSRP price - congrats! What do you do for a living to afford this stellar equipment? Your cartridge alone costs more than my entire set-up, it must sound stellar. Does your spousal unit approve of your hobby?  Does she listen to those Lee Morgan LP's with you? Tongue

There is only one hi-fi audio store in my area and I'm sure they won't have any music I'm familiar with to play on their system, so it does me no good. And I can't afford it. They would probably kick me out for having long hair, wearing blue jeans, and beat-up Chuck Taylors. LOL

Just for you to get a laugh out of my system. This is what I have....

Dennon 2801 Receiver 
Oppo BDP-93 (Blu-ray player)
5 Paradigm Legend Speakers 

She buys me records...so yes. You don't build a high-end system in a month unless you have uber money, like many it takes several years to build what you want. 
I coach HS lacrosse and do lacrosse camps in the summer and that funds my habit, my job pays the mortgage and taxes and buys food and worthless krapp like cars.
Nothing wrong with what you got, its wayy better than what I had as a teenager in my room, gotta start somewhere.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 18:06
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

^ That OPPO player is quite good. You could start by building around that transport. It is solid.
Thanks, but unless I win the lottery, this is my "forever" set-up.


It took me 8 years to build up my headphone rig. I know it is expensive but it is obtainable.


.....word....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 18:26
I'm retired and live on a fixed income, so my current set-up is final.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2021 at 18:30
10-12 yrs and I’ll be in retirement too....hopefully. And whatever system I have at that point will be it!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progbethyname Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 03 2022 at 16:55
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

10-12 yrs and I’ll be in retirement too....hopefully. And whatever system I have at that point will be it!!


I’m 19 years away.
Wanna stop working at 60.

Will be retirement pen pals for sure.
You’ve always appreciated building a proper audio system.


Gimmie my headphones now!!! 🎧🤣
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2022 at 08:32
Hi,

I have a different take on this.

For me, when I found "Tangerine Dream" 50 years ago, I immediately went to a store that had all kinds of stereo crap in it, and had them put on the album (Phaedra). 

I ended up with a super nice Pioneer Turntable that lasted 40 years (had to replace the belts twice), and 2 ESS Heil AMT 1 speakers. The speakers alone were $750 for both of them, and we're talking 1972 or 1973. Theses speakers have been re-conned twice here in Portland by a man that does speakers (JaMac) and has done this for many bands for a long time. The cartridge for the turntable was a Stanton that cost $200+ dollars at the time, and it lasted for 30 years!

The difference was, and is ... that even the 5.1 stuff does not sound as good as the LP did on those speakers and superlative stereo system. Folks today, I don't think, have any idea of what "quality" really is, how to find it, and most just listen to mp3's off some website and its level is so bad that it makes the music sound very poor, by comparison.

Also available in those days, something that was far better than the 5.1 overdone and over rated stuff, was the RCA RED LABEL of music in the late 60's and early 70's that had the very best recordings of a lot of music ... that folks today, STILL have not heard, to have any idea of what "quality" was, and is, specially today in the cheap sell market of mp3's and every thing else out there. Downloads at Apple are not good quality and have never been. Same for many other music serves, and that is why they "offer" a different level for the money! But spending money like that won't matter much, because you do not have the system for it, and the headset through a cheap player or smartphone, won't give you a better idea of what the sonic qualities of it all really are like!

It's just difficult to discuss this, unless you have a super system that still stands. I did get a nice Stanton turntable, but the cartridge for it is crap, and they want an obscene amount of money for a cheap cartridge to replace the crapper that came with it. And I have not, yet, replaced the cartridge, specially as my LP collection dies down and I replace it with CD's. The space, the size and the heavy nature of carrying it all around, is not something for an old man!

All in all ... if folks heard a lot of this "top music" in that other stratosphere of listening, they would realize how much some music is important, and how much some folks knew how to work with those elements, specially someone like Edgar Froese! And few people will EVER give them credit for that, because of the fame nature of rock music, and the lack of listening by many folks here, and elsewhere. Hearing some things on mp3 is nowhere near the real thing, on a superlative system, and even 5.1 is full of it, and just more wasted money, time, and over rated setups trying to get your money.

The one thing about these 5.1's ... they are clean ... that one is for sure, but the instrumentation of things, specially SW's is "changed" somewhat to make it look like these are not in the same room or stage, or area, and sometimes, I think it takes the best side and parts of the music away from the original. However, I won't criticize this ... how do we rate The Firebird Suite, by one Bernstein, or The Firebird Suite by Kharajan  ... they were that different in approach, not the actual music itself.  

And SW has done the same thing. But to me, it did not help the music any ... sometimes the music itself is the SOUL of it all, and regardless of how it is done, it always lives ... bigger than anything else. AND we must remember that about all these supposedly magical things that make the music better! FOR YOUR MONEY, FOOOOO!!!!


Edited by moshkito - February 04 2022 at 08:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 04 2022 at 11:03
Originally posted by progbethyname progbethyname wrote:

Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

10-12 yrs and I’ll be in retirement too....hopefully. And whatever system I have at that point will be it!!


I’m 19 years away.
Wanna stop working at 60.

Will be retirement pen pals for sure.
You’ve always appreciated building a proper audio system.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2022 at 21:03
Man I wish I had a 5.1 system. The experience of multichannel listening is absolutely amazing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2022 at 21:22
Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

Man I wish I had a 5.1 system. The experience of multichannel listening is absolutely amazing.

Hi,

One of the hardest thing to teach actors on a stage, through rehearsal and improvisation, is the LISTENING capability, which will, in the end, help you learn your lines and reply correctly to the moment on the stage. 

It won't do much good to listen to 5.1, and you go outside and you can only hear 2 birds, and there are 300 of them all around you, for example, not to mention some traffic, some planes, some wind, and many other things, and if you can pickup at any second 10 of these separately, then 5.1 will be a good experience for you, with one very important and vital element ... you do not get to see the "concept" and the "design" of the LIFE around you, which in this case would be the music itself as opposed to the life right in front of your senses ... you are hearing separate instruments (more or less) and that's about it, but their cohesion and playing together which is best suited to being together in one room, ends up becoming separate (and to ME), less clear about the music. 

AND, this is one of the issues I have with SW. I don't think he sees the whole idea and concept ... he just sees what he wants to do, regardless, which is fine and he's done well with it, but in the end, it is not as valuable and important an experience for the music itself.

There is a sidebar here. In one Klaus Schulze DVD (one with Lisa) there is an extra bit about some of the engineers discussing a moment in his music, that you and I can not find if we look for it ... and he shows how to make it better, and Klaus agrees to it ... it didn't hurt the completeness of the work, regardless of the fact that you and I will never find it or notice it! THE BEST MIX is like that ... you can't find "details" and the music just lives on onto levels and visuals that are out of this world and universe ... so, strictly hearing 5 distinct instruments, for me, will tend to break up the whole-ness of it all, when it was designed to be together.

Might be different for some of the older and less simpatico and melodic music of the early electronic days, but for a rock band, I think it hurts more. Even jazz ... they are "together" and yet "apart".


Edited by moshkito - February 06 2022 at 21:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tempest_77 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 06 2022 at 22:10
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

Man I wish I had a 5.1 system. The experience of multichannel listening is absolutely amazing.

Hi,

One of the hardest thing to teach actors on a stage, through rehearsal and improvisation, is the LISTENING capability, which will, in the end, help you learn your lines and reply correctly to the moment on the stage. 

It won't do much good to listen to 5.1, and you go outside and you can only hear 2 birds, and there are 300 of them all around you, for example, not to mention some traffic, some planes, some wind, and many other things, and if you can pickup at any second 10 of these separately, then 5.1 will be a good experience for you, with one very important and vital element ... you do not get to see the "concept" and the "design" of the LIFE around you, which in this case would be the music itself as opposed to the life right in front of your senses ... you are hearing separate instruments (more or less) and that's about it, but their cohesion and playing together which is best suited to being together in one room, ends up becoming separate (and to ME), less clear about the music. 

AND, this is one of the issues I have with SW. I don't think he sees the whole idea and concept ... he just sees what he wants to do, regardless, which is fine and he's done well with it, but in the end, it is not as valuable and important an experience for the music itself.

There is a sidebar here. In one Klaus Schulze DVD (one with Lisa) there is an extra bit about some of the engineers discussing a moment in his music, that you and I can not find if we look for it ... and he shows how to make it better, and Klaus agrees to it ... it didn't hurt the completeness of the work, regardless of the fact that you and I will never find it or notice it! THE BEST MIX is like that ... you can't find "details" and the music just lives on onto levels and visuals that are out of this world and universe ... so, strictly hearing 5 distinct instruments, for me, will tend to break up the whole-ness of it all, when it was designed to be together.

Might be different for some of the older and less simpatico and melodic music of the early electronic days, but for a rock band, I think it hurts more. Even jazz ... they are "together" and yet "apart".

I'm talking about multichannel audio music as it's often used in experimental musical practices. I find that it much enhances how immersive the listening experience is, and that it can recreate or imitate a sense of acoustic space in a way that simply can't be matched with stereo audio.

Also, I've studied improvisation, both acting and musical. I've spent a lot of time learning about listening.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rdtprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2022 at 03:12
The 5.1 experience made me revisit my old favorites all-time 70's prog classics in a new perspective. You can also hear new sounds when it's done in discrete surround like Steven Wilson, Robert Reed, or Bruce Soord for example in the Prog field. I still enjoy stereo, but the surround sound is a new experience when you have the proper system to enjoy it of course. I can't listen anymore to my Yes classics in stereo after listening to CTEE, Fragile, Yes album in surround.
Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 07 2022 at 07:53
Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

...
I'm talking about multichannel audio music as it's often used in experimental musical practices. I find that it much enhances how immersive the listening experience is, and that it can recreate or imitate a sense of acoustic space in a way that simply can't be matched with stereo audio.
...

Hi,

I totally disagree, and specially when what is suggested here that ones listening can not possibly be clean and clear. That is NOT the sign of a musician and artist that is clear on his attempts to express his own feel of things through music.

There are, no words, to describe the sensation of the clarity of the wholeness of everything, specially around you and I. However, we are so damn selective about what we hear and what we want to hear, and how we want to hear, that the ability to be able to listen to it all, is nearly impossible, and the suggestion that your sense of the acoustic space which can't be matched ... is but an illusion, because regardless, the real thing in front of you is always the very best ... maybe for your taste and mine, in the right hands of course.

Stereo/mono and even 5.1, are IDEAS that have been added since the beginning of time ... let me change that ... the beginning of "sound" in the 20th century from movies and recordings on to today ... that were/are a great attempt at making the real thing sound better than it really is, and all that is saying is that it is filtered and touched up to sound cleaner and better than the real thing.

YOU HAVE NO FILTERS, if you are outside and trying to pick up as much as you can for each specific second in time. And the ability to pick up more than one thing for us, is nearly impossible since our senses are defined by our culture from day one. NOW, there is something else here. Take a blind person, and they are taught from day one to use their 4 senses to make up for the missing sense ... and what do you get? Blind musicians can hear more than you and I do, and they show it all the time, although some folks in older days did not have the ability and the studio ability that someone like Rachel Flowers does today ... but when you hear her do some KC (the Bill Bruford versions) you can hear that she added the little touches that Bill had in the music that almost no mixes of KC had shown ... and it makes the music richer ... and all this showed me, from my experiences on stage, was how much more was there that even we can not see, or hear or experience.

Originally posted by tempest_77 tempest_77 wrote:

...
Also, I've studied improvisation, both acting and musical. I've spent a lot of time learning about listening.

My studies in this will include a book I'm working on, about improvisation in many artistic disciplines. The hardest part of it all is learning its history, since it can go back to many "occult" studies and how so much was used, and experimented with. And, in the end, this all reminds me about don Juan in the Castaneda series when Carlos asked about the drugs. "You were so plugged up that we had to distract you, so you could learn about one little thing or two!" 

The day we stop being fooled by "imaginary" processes that supposedly show an instrument better than it really is, is the day that music will die! Because in that day, you are no longer needed, and neither are "listeners". A sort of Arthur C. Clarke Overlord thing, if you will!

I am sorry, but I am not one that thinks that all of us humans do not have the ability and that some technical invention is better than what you and I have. That's for robots, not people in my book!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 09 2022 at 08:33
Originally posted by rdtprog rdtprog wrote:

 
... I still enjoy stereo, but the surround sound is a new experience when you have the proper system to enjoy it of course. I can't listen anymore to my Yes classics in stereo after listening to CTEE, Fragile, Yes album in surround.

Hi,

This is sad for me and my ears.

It's like saying that the music itself is not the "soul" of it all, and that some manipulation of the sounds, makes the experience better than it really is ... or was!

I saw them live, doing TFTO at the Long Beach Arena, and even though the one SW mix I have heard is really nice, I can not compare the feeling and appreciation of it all then, to what I am hearing now. It maybe "crisper" and "cleaner" than before, but to me, that was not "the music" that was the elements and everything else interfering with the complete feeling.

Even sadder, is thinking that if you check out 3 different versions of The Rite of Spring from 3 different conductors, that they can't possibly be good, because one of them was done on the RCA Red Label (the best recording before rock music took over with Beatles and Stones) ... and that is simply not true. The experience and the soul of the music is all there, despite what seems to be a different level of attention to different portions of the music.

To me, that manipulation tends to DISTRACT from the original. There is a purity of vision in the original, that can not be removed, or replaced, and if you see it, you will never think that a mix of this or that, or a bit more salt, or less sugar, or the different placement of the orchestra instruments (Stokowski), made the music sound different ... and yet, it's its soul that makes us remember it!

We've lost touch of what "sound" is, and we think that when it is cleaned up and not interfered by something else it makes it better ... and every time I go outside my door in my yard, and hear the birds, the trees, the squirrels, the planes, the cars and the wind ... that separating it so I can hear only three of those things, will make it unreal and not "LIVE" as it needs to be, and for me, music has to LIVE ... and its soul is the primary important part of it, not its cleaned out this and that on a 6.9 mix or 5.1 mix!


Edited by moshkito - February 09 2022 at 08:35
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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