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nick_h_nz View Drop Down
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One of the first bands I wanted given another chance when I joined the prog metal team was Amorphis. Because they have been rejected before, they would need to be unanimously accepted in any new submission, which is why I have still not yet put them on the table. But they are definitely and undoubtedly prog metal to my ears - and considerably more so than a lot of bands that have made it into the three prog metal genres of PA.

I’d like to think that one day Amorphis will find a way into PA, but if they never do, I’ll not be greatly concerned. PA is hardly the be-all and end-all of prog, and there are a great many bands out there recognised as prog outside PA but not within. Every prog festival in the UK, and every edition of Prog magazine, features bands who have failed to make the cut here, but which are not seen as anything other than prog outside PA.
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I listened to them a little bit a few months ago, gave them another chance, I don't get the hype around them, even as far as melodic death metal goes, I've heard better. 

If we decide to re-evaluate, I don't mind but I need time and the right mood to dive into their catalogue again. It's kinda the same situation as Tourniquet. I don't know what to do TBH. 
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Just know that if we resurrect Amorphis on here for evaluation, I will 100% give them a yes. Amorphis have always been one of the most baffling prog metal rejections on PA in my opinion (Nevermore being another one).

Edited by Necrotica - March 14 2022 at 02:19
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Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Just know that if we resurrect Amorphis on here for evaluation, I will 100% give them a yes. Amorphis have always been one of the most baffling prog metal rejections on PA in my opinion (Nevermore being another one).

Amorphis and Nevermore are both prog metal to me. We all have different ears, though, so it is not that surprising, I guess, that not everyone is agreement as to what is or is not prog.

I haven’t listened to the new Amorphis yet, but I have heard good things about it. 🇫🇮 
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Just know that if we resurrect Amorphis on here for evaluation, I will 100% give them a yes. Amorphis have always been one of the most baffling prog metal rejections on PA in my opinion (Nevermore being another one).

Amorphis and Nevermore are both prog metal to me. We all have different ears, though, so it is not that surprising, I guess, that not everyone is agreement as to what is or is not prog.

I haven’t listened to the new Amorphis yet, but I have heard good things about it. 🇫🇮 


For sure; everybody has their own take on what is or isn't prog. For instance, I never understood how Nightwish got added to the site, though I guess most people are fine with the inclusion LOL
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Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Just know that if we resurrect Amorphis on here for evaluation, I will 100% give them a yes. Amorphis have always been one of the most baffling prog metal rejections on PA in my opinion (Nevermore being another one).

Amorphis and Nevermore are both prog metal to me. We all have different ears, though, so it is not that surprising, I guess, that not everyone is agreement as to what is or is not prog.

I haven’t listened to the new Amorphis yet, but I have heard good things about it. 🇫🇮 


For sure; everybody has their own take on what is or isn't prog. For instance, I never understood how Nightwish got added to the site, though I guess most people are fine with the inclusion LOL

If Nightwish were suggested today, I probably would not say "yes", maybe prog-related. I would certainly reject any Rhapsody existing on PA. 

As for Nevermore, as much as I enjoy them, I don't know if it's a baffling rejection. Shall we re-evaluate? We can at least discuss. 
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Back in the early days of this site when the genre teams were first being established, there was undoubtedly a lower threshold for inclusion than there is today, especially within Prog-Metal, when Nightwish, Rhapsody, Kamelot and Epica among others were all included. The theory (back in 2005) was that if music lovers were trawling the Internet looking for info on popular bands, would 'happen' upon our site and be introduced to more progressive material. It was also decided that once a band had been submitted for inclusion, they couldn't be removed by subsequent members (I don't know whether this rule still stands), hence the continuing discussions about the likes of Rhapsody's inclusion (one of the first Admins was a huge fan).

This idea of casting a wider net continued for a couple more years, during which time, Blind Guardian, Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple among others were added, usually amidst great acrimony, with members saying that 'it was a line in the sand and they would be leaving if xxx were added' and so on (you know what Prog fans can be like! LOL) 

I guess a line has to be drawn somewhere, but I remember the discussions (often private) about Nevermore, when Communic were added and they weren't, for instance....

As far as Amorphis are concerned, I respectfully disagree with Cristi in terms of quality; Amiorphis are the very finest in their field, however Prog Metal? I've long been on the fence....  
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Back in the early days of this site when the genre teams were first being established, there was undoubtedly a lower threshold for inclusion than there is today, especially within Prog-Metal, when Nightwish, Rhapsody, Kamelot and Epica among others were all included. The theory (back in 2005) was that if music lovers were trawling the Internet looking for info on popular bands, would 'happen' upon our site and be introduced to more progressive material. It was also decided that once a band had been submitted for inclusion, they couldn't be removed by subsequent members (I don't know whether this rule still stands), hence the continuing discussions about the likes of Rhapsody's inclusion (one of the first Admins was a huge fan).

This idea of casting a wider net continued for a couple more years, during which time, Blind Guardian, Iron Maiden, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple among others were added, usually amidst great acrimony, with members saying that 'it was a line in the sand and they would be leaving if xxx were added' and so on (you know what Prog fans can be like! LOL) 

I guess a line has to be drawn somewhere, but I remember the discussions (often private) about Nevermore, when Communic were added and they weren't, for instance....

As far as Amorphis are concerned, I respectfully disagree with Cristi in terms of quality; Amiorphis are the very finest in their field, however Prog Metal? I've long been on the fence....  

I never said anything about Amorphis' quality, just that I do not understand the hype around the band. I'm gonna listen to them again if we re-evaluate and decide what to do with them. 

Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath are under prog-related, so I do not see any controversy around them. Deep Purple are proto-prog because of the early Rod Evans era, nothing controversial either. 
 
As for Blind Guardian, I'm not sure I'd say "yes" to them if they were suggested today. 

I'm up for re-evaluating Nevermore ( but they could only get added if they are unanimously accepted). 


Edited by Cristi - March 14 2022 at 03:43
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I listened to them a little bit a few months ago, gave them another chance, I don't get the hype around them, even as far as melodic death metal goes, I've heard better. 

That does seem to be a comment on their overall quality, Cristi... LOL
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System of a Down are more prog metal than Nightwish, Rhapsody or Blind Guardian and the like! 😄

I get people being on the fence about bands like Amorphis or Nevermore. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. But for me, Nevermore is very similar to Queensryche, and although I totally agree with not using the “if x is here, why is y not?” argument, Nevermore and Queensryche are a quintessential x and y situation. Why one is considered prog metal and the other not, I honestly can’t understand. But there it is, and it’s not for me to argue.

The thing is, so long as bands such as Nightwish do remain in PA, then there will always be controversy and argument over why certain bands are now rejected. Is there really still a reason why a band like Nightwish can’t be removed from PA? I guess the obvious one is a variant on the x and y arguement: “If x was removed from PA, why is y still here?”

Regardless, if either Amorphis or Nevermore do come up for re-evaluation, they will get my yes.



Edited by nick_h_nz - March 14 2022 at 03:53
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Originally posted by Jared Jared wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I listened to them a little bit a few months ago, gave them another chance, I don't get the hype around them, even as far as melodic death metal goes, I've heard better. 

That does seem to be a comment on their overall quality, Cristi... LOL

It's more about me struggling getting into them than me thinking they're not a good band. 
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

System of a Down are more prog metal than Nightwish, Rhapsody or Blind Guardian and the like! 😄

I get people being on the fence about bands like Amorphis or Nevermore. The line needs to be drawn somewhere. But for me, Nevermore is very similar to Queensryche, and although I totally agree with not using the “if x is here, why is y not?” argument, Nevermore and Queensryche are a quintessential x and y situation. Why one is considered prog metal and the other not, I honestly can’t understand. But there it is, and it’s not for me to argue.

The thing is, so long as bands such as Nightwish do remain in PA, then there will always be controversy and argument over why certain bands are now rejected. Is there really still a reason why a band like Nightwish can’t be removed from PA? I guess the obvious one is a variant on the x and y arguement: “If x was removed from PA, why is y still here?”

Regardless, if either Amorphis or Nevermore do come up for re-evaluation, they will get my yes.


Nevermore is much heavier than Queensryche. 
Queensryche were relevant to the beginnings of the prog-metal genre, that's why they are on PA. 

I also understand why Nightwish got accepted, they were unique in their early days, they took elements from several genres and created their own sound. Blind Guardian fit better under prog-related. As for Rhapsody, they should not be here. 

Seems Nevermore were suggested and rejected several times. 


Edited by Cristi - March 14 2022 at 04:12
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^ Rhapsody deserves to be here as much as Nightwish does. Nightwish was unique? There was Therion before. When it comes to symphonic power metal, Rhapsody (of Fire) was the first band that full fledgedly utilized that. Nightish's symhonic quality was not that complete, and Therion was not really a power metal band.

Edited by Archisorcerus - March 14 2022 at 04:26
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Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Necrotica Necrotica wrote:

Just know that if we resurrect Amorphis on here for evaluation, I will 100% give them a yes. Amorphis have always been one of the most baffling prog metal rejections on PA in my opinion (Nevermore being another one).

Amorphis and Nevermore are both prog metal to me. We all have different ears, though, so it is not that surprising, I guess, that not everyone is agreement as to what is or is not prog.

I haven’t listened to the new Amorphis yet, but I have heard good things about it. 🇫🇮 


For sure; everybody has their own take on what is or isn't prog. For instance, I never understood how Nightwish got added to the site, though I guess most people are fine with the inclusion LOL

If Nightwish were suggested today, I probably would not say "yes", maybe prog-related. I would certainly reject any Rhapsody existing on PA. 

As for Nevermore, as much as I enjoy them, I don't know if it's a baffling rejection. Shall we re-evaluate? We can at least discuss. 


I actually just found a 12 year old Nevermore thread and was going to comment there, but since this has recently been brought up, I'll comment here instead.

I do not think they're progressive metal in the traditional sense of the word. They are quite unique and I just picked up a few of their albums. Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of them and I don't understand all the hype around them. The first half or so of This Godless Endeavor is fairly good, and Dreaming Neon Black is a hit or miss throughout. The other two I got (they were in a box set), Dead Heart... and Enemies... are just straight up bad and mediocre, respectively, in my opinion; but I digress.

I've been trying to label my Dreaming Neon Black (DNB) and This Godless Endeavor (TGE) MP3s on my computer for a few minutes now, and frankly, I don't know what else to label them, atm, other than progressive metal, despite the fact that I don't believe they are true prog. The other two I just labeled as Groove Metal.

They are certainly more progressive than Nightwish, that for damn sure. I'm thinking, simply for DNB and TGE, they might be a candidate for "prog-related," where, frankly, Nightwish should be, imo.

Honestly, I don't know how Black Sabbath (mentioned above the comment to which I'm responding) could even qualify for "prog-related." Honestly, they are about as far away as prog as you can get. I also think they are amongst the most over rated bands in history, so maybe I just don't understand, same with Led Zeppelin, although their song Achilles Last Stand could be considered prog-related, I suppose. I also don't see how Jimi Hendrix could be prog-related either, but I again digress. My point is, if Nightwish could be "Progressive Metal" and Black Sabbath can be "prog-related," Nevermore may certainly qualify for "prog-related," "or possibly even "tech/extreme metal," event though they aren't really, imo, prog, if not at least for the fact that they are frequently categorized by many other people as "progressive metal," and since they don't really solidly fall under any other soubgenre of metal.

As for Amorphis - another band for which I don't really understand the hype (I only checked out their Queen of Time album since Noa Gruman and her choir, Hellscore is featured on the album). A major problem for me is that the clean vocals are a major turn off for me; they're so generic and bland. Although I do admit, I hear tons of similarities to Orphaned Land's album Unsung Prophets and Dead Messiahs, yet I'm only hearing minimal prog elements. I am not familiar enough with them to comment, but my first impression with the Queen of Time album is symphonic melodic death metal. Not even really prog-related, imo.

As for the "controversial" bands, mentioned in this thread - if I were a collaborator, I would vote:
Blind Guardian: No for progressive metal, possibly yes, possibly no for prog-related
Nightwish: No for progressive metal, yes for prog-related
Black Sabbath: No for prog-related
Amorphis: No for progressive metal, possibly yes, probably no for prog-related
Nevermore: No for progressive or tech/extreme metal, yes for prog-related
Metallica: Yes for progressive metal (because of the album ...And Justice for All)
Iron Maiden: Yes for prog-related
Deep Purple: Yes for proto-prog, possibly even yes for heavy prog
Epica: Yes for progressive metal, believe it or not - they're close enough for me
Kamelot: Never listened to them, can't comment
Rhapsody: Can't comment
Queensryche: Can't comment


Edited by bardberic - June 22 2022 at 06:07
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Any updates on potential re-evaluation? Or does someone need to make an official post suggesting them first?
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They’ll get a “yes” from me, if they ever do come up for re-evaluation. There’s more than enough prog in their music for me to give them a yes. But I have a feeling at least one of my prog metal team mates does not think they are prog enough, and only one “no” vote would see them rejected once more. So until I’m more confident of a unanimous “yes” vote, I’m certainly not pushing for a re-evaluation.
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I've always been surprised my Amorphis is not here? Found an old thread about this band, nothing more.
I believe they are much more prog than numerous bands represented here.
AllMusic actually lists their Style as  Heavy Metal, Scandinavian Metal, Progressive Metal, and this is a quote from one of their reviews that speaks for itself:
"Pretty much from the very start, Amorphis' career has been about constant reinvention (hence the name, hello!), and so the Finnish group's albums have traversed the realms of death, folk, progressive, electronic, and psychedelic rock and metal over the past 20 years -- never looking back along the way. "

I totally agree with their characteristic! If "constant reinvention" and blend of death, folk, progressive, electronic, and psychedelic rock and metalis not "prog",  then I don't know what prog is.
Can we add them, please?


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Edited by Booba Kastorsky - February 02 2024 at 18:18
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I agree. Amorphis has been on my suggestion list for a while but if you want to suggest you need to write a bio and suggest the albums you feel will qualify them. Pretty much everything after Tales From The Thousand Lakes qualifies as progressive metal. That is the primary tagging on RYM. I have most their albums so i'll vote yes once suggested properly.


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I'll also vote Yes once we get a biography.
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^ And that's why they weren't re-evaluated when the last suggestion for this band was made in June 2021 (there have been at least 8 previous suggestions - with an average of more than one a year between 2006 and 2011). That previous suggestion is still open, so I think it would be beneficial if admins could perhaps merge this latest thread with it rather than have yet another one floating around.

The old progfreak charts with all the previous votes that have been cast are unfortunately no more, but some of the old 'yes' votes from it have been carried over to the new AwesomeProg chart for the band:

Rejected
Yes4: UMUR, J-Man, bonnek and NickHudson
History
over 14 years ago UMUR voted Yes.
over 14 years ago J-Man voted Yes.
about 13 years ago bonnek voted Yes.
about 3 years ago NickHudson voted Yes.
almost 3 years ago NickHudson set section to Discuss.
almost 3 years ago NickHudson set section to Rejected.

I'm not going to write a biography myself for this band because based on what was written in that last thread I still think there is going to be someone in the team who would vote 'no', and it would thus ultimately be a wasted effort. They will need unanimous approval from the team before they can be added.

It does look as though two of the four current team members would definitely vote 'yes' though, so I guess we're half way there lol!
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