A Random Thought |
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Mascodagama
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I'm not convinced that 'esoteric' is a useful term in distinguishing prog from not-prog. Cecil Taylor and Evan Parker are esoteric. Xenakis and Conlon Nancarrow are esoteric. This doesn't give them genre relationships with each other or with prog.
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Soldato of the Pan Head Mafia. We'll make you an offer you can't listen to.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13957 |
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There's actually lots of stuff that is too avantgarde and outlandish to be considered prog (including those).
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1503 |
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I take it to mean, as per dictionary definition: "...intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest." This does not necessarily mean that any such thing can not be appreciated and accepted by the "mainstream", only that this wider appreciation and acceptance is not the primary purpose or function of the work.
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 12296 |
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Fair enough. I didn't try to imply he was saying that the esoteric aspect is the main reason for a song to be considered prog. But my apologies anyways, for any misunderstanding.
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Progosopher
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 12 2009 Location: Coolwood Status: Offline Points: 6393 |
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Thank you. I ask, because we sometimes use terms in a highly specific manner. There is a dynamic within popular and semi-popular styles of music - how does one balance artistic authenticity with a drive towards success. No one can make a career without making money. Time and time again we have seen musicians give us a powerful artistic vision in their early work, only to cater to popular tastes late on. Some would call this a conflict, but that is only so when you consider but one side of this dichotomy. The balance is especially difficult when popular musical tastes change. The early and late 70s are a prime example. I regard Prog as a semi-popular style for its creators seek to make a living from their art. It comes down to individual choice as to how big the target audience is. And some artists naturally have a style that fits better with mainstream popularity than others. There is definitely an esoteric aspect to Prog, following the above definition of the word, but I would also argue that most Prog musicians would like to see their music more widely popular.
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The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Heart of the Matter
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 01 2020 Location: Argentina Status: Offline Points: 2995 |
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So, the use of "esoteric" only makes sense when a certain community of listeners exists. Never remains the possibility of some music without an audience. That's not bad at all, we can enjoy our private party and bear no remorse! |
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1503 |
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Seems like we're moving into the "If a tree falls in the forest..." territory to me. That's fine. I don't mind that territory. "The term observer effect generally refers to the possibility that an act of observation may affect the properties of what is observed. However, depending on the context and the mechanisms involved, it may indicate effects of a very different nature. Observer effects are a threat to validity in much of educational research." |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 64238 |
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We can probably agree sound waves are generated if an unobserved/unheard tree falls, as are vibrations through the ground. The question is are those waves audible if there is no receptor? The answer would seem to be they potentially are ~ but could not be ~ audible. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Hugh Manatee
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 07 2021 Location: The Barricades Status: Offline Points: 1503 |
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So then, does any given quantum phenomenon need an observer to legitimize its existence?
Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 20 2021 at 19:44 |
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Hugh Manatee
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I would suggest that most people seek understanding and seek to be undertood.
I would further suggets that "art" seeks a deeper understanding and as such can set itself up to be misunderstood. Even art that can be appreciated on the surface can at the same time contain deeper levels of understanding meant to accomodate those who choose to search for it. For me at least, art is at its best when it not only comments on or reflects the nature of reality but also puts into question the nature of reality. Otherwise it's just advertising.
Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 20 2021 at 22:08 |
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Atavachron
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I tend to think the latter. Edited by Atavachron - December 20 2021 at 23:00 |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Hugh Manatee
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OK, this is really turning the whole thing inside out. I like that. Chickens and eggs might be mentioned but I don't think that quite applies. However I do feel that a majority of artists place a message within their work, even if unintentionally. That reflection of themselves that insisted on being manifested. As I stated, this can indeed lead to misunderstanding. Ultimately it is up to the observer to decide for themselves the connotations, if any of any given example. It is an age old unwritten contract that is embedded in the exchange. Once an artist releases a work into the wild they relinquish ownership of its interpretation. It becomes a feedback loop.
Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 21 2021 at 00:11 |
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Atavachron
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So you're suggesting exterpretation, or a sort of analysis of what the artist may be subconsciously reflecting in their work. That hurts to think about. |
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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Hugh Manatee
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Exterpretation hey? I don't think I'm suggesting that in as much as I undertand what you mean by it. What I do suggest is that every work of art is a reflection of its creator and their urge to create. So, there's that to consider at the very least. First it needs to capture the attention and even interest of an observer. How much further any one wants to take it after that is up to them. I suggest that the more esoterica a work contains, the more attention it demands, the deeper it draws the observer in. Sometimes this can lead to a head-ache.
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I should have been a pair of ragged claws
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Heart of the Matter
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Music seems to be air vibrations in the presence of ears. Remove those (few or many) ears, and what's left?
A tree fall in the forest. Edited by Heart of the Matter - December 22 2021 at 08:15 |
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moshkito
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Hi, And the real issue in all this, specially today, is "advertising", and folks not realizing that "hits" these days, are how many times it is mentioned or used, as the measure for how much to charge for advertising. Thus, even the crap threads here, would count for someone to charge for their work, and advertising. And I'm not sure that we realize how much the "bigger" names in "prog" and "progressive" may be paying attention to that when setting up their updates or newer contracts for the delivery of their material. The nature of "reality" has become the new "master", and the nature of "quality" is relegated to some sort of idiocy that is not even considered, and that is a problem even here on PA where several groups get attention, but many of those folks won't even type one letter on many other places that try to help some other bands, or threads. Heck, the easiest one to see would be Damo's thread on Japanese stuff ... oh yeah, I see a lot of folks post there, except some of these "non-qualified" members that know these esoteric and strange bands, and yet ... THEY ARE THERE and deserve the attention ... it's the only thread that is consistently working, and gets responses, since any other "foreign" this or that is often more ignored than one person or two. And you won't catch many of those higher ups listed in those areas, because it takes away from their strength in the right numbers to support the PA structure, which is fine with me, but it really could use some more talent on the other side of the world, so to speak! BTW, I'm not sure that folks today, even realize what it advertising and how much it controls them ... they still go to see their Marvel Comics come to life! And it is over rated crap that has money for advertising, and you think it is good because you see all those ads. Something with no one talking about it, and no ads, has no chance! That's the commercial/socialistic attitude right there! They couldn't careless about the art of it all!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Hercules
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 14 2007 Location: Near York UK Status: Offline Points: 7018 |
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My random thought, having spent almost an hour compiling a long comment on this, is how do I deal out revenge to the site for telling me I don't have sufficient privileges to post and then deleting my work?
Anyone have the number of a reliable hitman?
Edited by Hercules - December 21 2021 at 10:18 |
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A TVR is not a car. It's a way of life.
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 13514 |
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Edited by David_D - December 22 2021 at 04:51 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 26 2010 Location: Copenhagen Status: Offline Points: 13514 |
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Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense, in my opinion.
Edited by David_D - December 22 2021 at 02:07 |
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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