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Mascodagama View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mascodagama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 14:17
I'm not convinced that 'esoteric' is a useful term in distinguishing prog from not-prog. Cecil Taylor and Evan Parker are esoteric. Xenakis and Conlon Nancarrow are esoteric. This doesn't give them genre relationships with each other or with prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 15:16
Originally posted by Mascodagama Mascodagama wrote:

I'm not convinced that 'esoteric' is a useful term in distinguishing prog from not-prog. Cecil Taylor and Evan Parker are esoteric. Xenakis and Conlon Nancarrow are esoteric. This doesn't give them genre relationships with each other or with prog.

There's actually lots of stuff that is too avantgarde and outlandish to be considered prog (including those).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 16:10
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

What do you mean by 'esoteric?'

I take it to mean, as per dictionary definition:

"...intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest."

This does not necessarily mean that any such thing can not be appreciated and accepted by the "mainstream", only that this wider appreciation and acceptance is not the primary purpose or function of the work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 16:20
Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

It might be one component, but not all prog is esoteric, and not even the main reason to be considered prog, not at least in my book.

To be fair, the OP states quite clearly that this is only one component/condition of what might cause something to be considered prog (or not) - and nowhere is it implied that this is the one and only, nor the most important. It seems to be that far too many people are latching into the esoteric angle, without taking into account the full OP. 🤔🤷🏻‍♂️

Fair enough. I didn't try to imply he was saying that the esoteric aspect is the main reason for a song to be considered prog. But my apologies anyways, for any misunderstanding.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 17:34
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

What do you mean by 'esoteric?'

I take it to mean, as per dictionary definition:

"...intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest."

This does not necessarily mean that any such thing can not be appreciated and accepted by the "mainstream", only that this wider appreciation and acceptance is not the primary purpose or function of the work.

Thank you. I ask, because we sometimes use terms in a highly specific manner.

There is a dynamic within popular and semi-popular styles of music - how does one balance artistic authenticity with a drive towards success. No one can make a career without making money. Time and time again we have seen musicians give us a powerful artistic vision in their early work, only to cater to popular tastes late on. Some would call this a conflict, but that is only so when you consider but one side of this dichotomy. The balance is especially difficult when popular musical tastes change. The early and late 70s are a prime example. I regard Prog as a semi-popular style for its creators seek to make a living from their art. It comes down to individual choice as to how big the target audience is. And some artists naturally have a style that fits better with mainstream popularity than others. There is definitely an esoteric aspect to Prog, following the above definition of the word, but I would also argue that most Prog musicians would like to see their music more widely popular.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 18:06
Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

[QUOTE=Progosopher]What do you mean by 'esoteric?'


I take it to mean, as per dictionary definition: "...intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest."


So, the use of "esoteric" only makes sense when a certain community of listeners exists. Never remains the possibility of some music without an audience. That's not bad at all, we can enjoy our private party and bear no remorse!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 18:39
Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

Never remains the possibility of some music without an audience.

Seems like we're moving into the "If a tree falls in the forest..." territory to me.

That's fine. I don't mind that territory.

"The term observer effect generally refers to the possibility that an act of observation may affect the properties of what is observed. However, depending on the context and the mechanisms involved, it may indicate effects of a very different nature. Observer effects are a threat to validity in much of educational research."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 19:19
We can probably agree sound waves are generated if an unobserved/unheard tree falls, as are vibrations through the ground.   The question is are those waves audible if there is no receptor?   The answer would seem to be they potentially are ~ but could not be ~ audible.



"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 19:42
So then, does any given quantum phenomenon need an observer to legitimize its existence?

Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 20 2021 at 19:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 21:56
I would suggest that most people seek understanding and seek to be undertood.

I would further suggets that "art"  seeks a deeper understanding and as such can set itself up to be misunderstood.

Even art that can be appreciated on the surface can at the same time contain deeper levels of understanding meant to accomodate those who choose to search for it.

For me at least, art is at its best when it not only comments on or reflects the nature of reality but also puts into question the nature of reality.

Otherwise it's just advertising. 


Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 20 2021 at 22:08
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 22:58
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

Even art that can be appreciated on the surface can at the same time contain deeper levels of understanding meant to accomodate those who choose to search for it.
And yet focused interpretation may tend to suppress the very aspect you describe as "deeper levels of understanding", pitting the observer in a quest to find greater meaning ~ e.g. metaphor,symbolism,etc. ~ where the artist hasn't meant any, or has not inserted any.   Are the 'deeper levels of understanding' actually embedded by the artist to accommodate the reader/listener, or is it what the reader/listener brings to their own table ?

I tend to think the latter. 




Edited by Atavachron - December 20 2021 at 23:00
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 20 2021 at 23:50
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

 And yet focused interpretation may tend to suppress the very aspect you describe as "deeper levels of understanding", pitting the observer in a quest to find greater meaning ~ e.g. metaphor,symbolism,etc. ~ where the artist hasn't meant any, or has not inserted any.   Are the 'deeper levels of understanding' actually embedded by the artist to accommodate the reader/listener, or is it what the reader/listener brings to their own table.


OK, this is really turning the whole thing inside out.

I like that.

Chickens and eggs might be mentioned but I don't think that quite applies. However I do feel that a majority of artists place a message within their work, even if unintentionally. That reflection of themselves that insisted on being manifested. 

As I stated, this can indeed lead to misunderstanding. Ultimately it is up to the observer to decide for themselves the connotations, if any of any given example. It is an age old unwritten contract that is embedded in the exchange.

Once an artist releases a work into the wild they relinquish ownership of its interpretation.

It becomes a feedback loop.


Edited by Hugh Manatee - December 21 2021 at 00:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Atavachron Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2021 at 00:16
So you're suggesting exterpretation, or a sort of analysis of what the artist may be subconsciously reflecting in their work.   That hurts to think about.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hugh Manatee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2021 at 01:10
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

So you're suggesting exterpretation, or a sort of analysis of what the artist may be subconsciously reflecting in their work.   That hurts to think about.



Exterpretation hey? I don't think I'm suggesting that in as much as I undertand what you mean by it.

What I do suggest is that every work of art is a reflection of its creator and their urge to create. So, there's that to consider at the very least. First it needs to capture the attention and even interest of an observer. How much further any one wants to take it after that is up to them. 

I suggest that the more esoterica a work contains, the more attention it demands, the deeper it draws the observer in.

Sometimes this can lead to a head-ache.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2021 at 06:42
Music seems to be air vibrations in the presence of ears. Remove those (few or many) ears, and what's left?
A tree fall in the forest.

Edited by Heart of the Matter - December 22 2021 at 08:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2021 at 07:55
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

I would suggest that most people seek understanding and seek to be undertood.

I would further suggets that "art"  seeks a deeper understanding and as such can set itself up to be misunderstood.

Even art that can be appreciated on the surface can at the same time contain deeper levels of understanding meant to accomodate those who choose to search for it.

For me at least, art is at its best when it not only comments on or reflects the nature of reality but also puts into question the nature of reality.

Otherwise it's just advertising. 

Hi,

And the real issue in all this, specially today, is "advertising", and folks not realizing that "hits" these days, are how many times it is mentioned or used, as the measure for how much to charge for advertising. Thus, even the crap threads here, would count for someone to charge for their work, and advertising. And I'm not sure that we realize how much the "bigger" names in "prog" and "progressive" may be paying attention to that when setting up their updates or newer contracts for the delivery of their material.

The nature of "reality" has become the new "master", and the nature of "quality" is relegated to some sort of idiocy that is not even considered, and that is a problem even here on PA where several groups get attention, but many of those folks won't even type one letter on many other places that try to help some other bands, or threads. Heck, the easiest one to see would be Damo's thread on Japanese stuff ... oh yeah, I see a lot of folks post there, except some of these "non-qualified" members that know these esoteric and strange bands, and yet ... THEY ARE THERE and deserve the attention ... it's the only thread that is consistently working, and gets responses, since any other "foreign" this or that is often more ignored than one person or two. And you won't catch many of those higher ups listed in those areas, because it takes away from their strength in the right numbers to support the PA structure, which is fine with me, but it really could use some more talent on the other side of the world, so to speak!

BTW, I'm not sure that folks today, even realize what it advertising and how much it controls them ... they still go to see their Marvel Comics come to life! And it is over rated crap that has money for advertising, and you think it is good because you see all those ads. Something with no one talking about it, and no ads, has no chance! That's the commercial/socialistic attitude right there! They couldn't careless about the art of it all!
... none of the hits, none of the time ... favoritism is not an artistic merit! www.pedrosena.com
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2021 at 10:18
My random thought, having spent almost an hour compiling a long comment on this, is how do I deal out revenge to the site for telling me I don't have sufficient privileges to post and then deleting my work?

Anyone have the number of a reliable hitman?



Edited by Hercules - December 21 2021 at 10:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2021 at 10:40

The bands, included by what can be said to be the usual Prog definition today (like RYM's and PA's), considered as a whole are rather popular which appears for instance by looking at RYM's top 200 Rock chart, and adding the popularity seen on PA's top 100. There are though large differences depending on which bands/subgenres we are talking about. The most popular bands, like Pink Floyd, King Crimson, Yes, Can, Genesis, Tool, The Mars Volta, Rush, Opeth and Jethro Tull are very popular while the popularity of for instance RIO/Avant-Prog bands is certainly more modest, and they can be seen as esoteric ones (concerning "only a small number of people").
Star


Edited by David_D - December 22 2021 at 04:51
quality above quantity, and PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 21 2021 at 13:13
Originally posted by Hugh Manatee Hugh Manatee wrote:

If that is the case, does it then follow that the truest prog would be that which is beyond any listeners understanding?

Sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense, in my opinion. Smile


Edited by David_D - December 22 2021 at 02:07
quality above quantity, and PopcoRn almost beyond
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