Too complex and/or ambitious for their own good? |
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edefakiel
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 17 2013 Location: Dos hermanas Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Posted: April 29 2022 at 02:05 |
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Sometimes I listen to artists or albums that are not particularly well regarded here or anywhere else; they are, or ignored, or heavily criticized among the fans of the genre to which they could be said to belong to, or among fans of the musicians that made it.
This sound like being hooked to the smell of my own farts, but I sometimes wonder whether they are too good to be more popular. Or maybe I'm just an egomaniac idiot. Or both. For example: The Void by Beardfish, a gut-wrenching album about the lost of two babies which includes all kind of genres, from death metal, sparingly, to Zappa's What's new in Baltimore unique jazzy style, everything under the perpetual influence of Porcupine Tree's Fear of a Blank Planet. Commonly considered the worst album in a not that popular, for what they deserve, in my opinion, discography with extraordinary classics like Destined Solitaire (a very similar case, in my opinion) and the better known Sleeping in Traffic Pt. 2. Note is just the most underrated masterpiece of modern prog that I can think of. The structure, the production, the lyrics... Everything is superb in my ears. Ben Levin in general, but specially Freak Machine. An avant-prog, hipster release that it is manic, orchestral, moody, quirky, lascivious; like a John Zorn project from someone who is in love with Radiohead, Freud and The Dream of a Ridiculous Man by Dostoievski. The description of the album says it all:
Tigran Hamasyan, in general. An Armenian jazz pianist able to play the impossible mix of Gentle Giant and Meshsuggah. His music is so exotic, so unique, so organic and alive... I just don't understand the indifference towards it. What do you think about this music? Too ambitious for its own good? Simply not that special? Do you know of anything similar? Do you believe that this that I'm describing can be better applied to other artists? Thank you for reading.
Edited by edefakiel - April 29 2022 at 02:34 |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13358 |
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The Armenian sounds interesting.
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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
My poor home recorded stuff at https://yellingxoanon.bandcamp.com |
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Manuel
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 09 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 12375 |
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Italian band Area Palea. Many people I know find them obnoxious.
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edefakiel
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 17 2013 Location: Dos hermanas Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Are you mixing Area and Aria Palea or am I missing something?
Area is interesting. Caution Radiation Area is insane, like having your head inside a Geiger Counter. Aria Palea is not as interesting for me, they remind me to the Spanish band Tabletom [1], but with better vocals. I think that the annoyance comes mainly from the production side of things, the sound is too brittle and harsh in my opinion. [1] In case that you want to listen to them: They have some interesting things musically, but the voice and the lyrics are just unbearable. This is the best example of the disconnect between their music and the voice of Rockberto (like in Rock + Roberto), the singer and mastermind behind the band:
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 14720 |
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No such thing as too complex. That's my favorite kinda prog!
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16148 |
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Hi,
I'll listen to all the suggestions, although I am of the opinion that the "idea" that some stuff is more complex or ambitious, often times is more of a comment about ITS AUDIENCE, than it is in reality about the band, its music and composers. When we are "young" we don't exactly think of ideas or concepts ... I want to do this ... which later becomes identified as something else, specially when the musical technical ability would not be as good as it became years later after doing it and practicing it. Although I come from a literary house and family, I really never liked their "design" to never appreciate the more modern and recent artists, writers and musicians, because they were not established by the circles of the know it all and never listen to nothing! I will give folks the credit they deserve for their efforts on their own, but NEVER in comparison to some sort of class division, which I find unfair, and often times a laugh by many higher level educators. Something similar I saw many years ago when I first read Peter Michael Hamel's book, when he trashed "popular music" and I think that for him, it meant, mostly, the top of the pops variety, which were preventing his artistry along with many other German bands from even getting an album released, and many of them had to go outside Germany to get anything done past the "schlagger", which is another term for the low level music, by the way!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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edefakiel
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 17 2013 Location: Dos hermanas Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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I know, man. I have discovered half of what I listen through your reviews. I can only say: thank you for everything. It is also my favorite, I'm talking about its reception.
I wholeheartedly agree with this. A lot of people I know believe that nothing of value was ever done after the year 2000, and that the 70's were the undisputable pinnacle of culture. We all love Pink Floyd, classic King Crimson, Gentle Giant (and even them are regularly overlooked) and Gabriel-era Genesis, don't get me wrong, but they are not the only good music in the world. I believe that part of my motivation to make people listen the likes of Beardfish, Tigran Hamasyan, Ben Levin or even (God forgives me) the despised Jacob Collier emerges from my sentiment of witnessing an injustice in the disdain towards anything new that I observe in a lot of people. A lot of great music is being done today and very few people care. For example: I f**king love complex, ambitious, intricate, insane music. We need to take care of those musicians.
Edited by edefakiel - April 29 2022 at 09:55 |
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Grumpyprogfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 10053 |
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I enjoy, Marco Minnemann a lot, but take a look at his albums reviews/ratings here. Sad. Cheers to great music. |
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Grumpyprogfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 10053 |
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Here is a song I consider complex, that I dig. Mike Mangini on drums. Mike Keneally doesn't get much discussion here.
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Man With Hat
Collaborator Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166178 |
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The only way this is possible is if the musicians can't play the music they wrote properly.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
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edefakiel
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 17 2013 Location: Dos hermanas Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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Don't get me wrong, I love and respect this community, but we are very few. Outside of PA and maybe RYM, it is impossible for me to talk about this kind of music with anyone here in Spain.
I really dig this. Completely my cup of tea.
Edited by edefakiel - April 29 2022 at 14:34 |
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 18 2014 Location: Mar Vista, CA Status: Offline Points: 4807 |
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I found Patric Moraz's The Story of I very overbaked. Haven't listened to it in years.
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"It just has none of the qualities of your work that I find interesting. Abandon [?] it." - Eno
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
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Some of Frank Zappa's music appears to have been created solely as an exercise in how difficult he could make a piece to play e.g. The Black Page, Jazz from Hell, Civilization: Phaze III etc. Refer to Milton Babbitt's infamous 1958 essay Who Cares If You Listen? for another 'serious' composer's contemptuous disregard for the public. Babbitt states that writers of such complex and advanced music are effectively 'vanity' composers. He got that bit right.
Edited by ExittheLemming - April 29 2022 at 17:09 |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Online Points: 16186 |
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Tales from topographic oceans and the lamb lies down on broadway eventhough I still like both. I think Mike Oldfield's Incantations might be another one.
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 14720 |
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For anyone interested, i made a list on Rate Your Music years ago called CRAZY COMPLEX PROG I tried to include the most demanding head spinning complex prog that i could find Rightfully a lot more avant-prog could be included but i didn't want it to be too redundant |
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 16148 |
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Hi, I have to disagree with this having met many writers in my younger days at home, some of whom my father translated into Portuguese for university/college folks. The majority of "artists" live OFF THEIR OWN VISION, and the understanding and appreciation of their work does not come off the public's point of view ... IT'S WHAT THEY SEE ... and that is not something that can be violated by outsiders even with a comment. As to the complexity, I don't think that Frank Zappa was complex. I think that he thought about something else in his music ... how does this go with that and so forth, which was an important attitude for classical music, and the history of music since at least the WW's. For us to make a statement, that I tend to look at as "commercial" is likely the issue ... IF WE ARE to have another "progressive/experimental" scene, it WILL NOT come from the comments here and the folks have to do what they SEE in their hearts and minds, which is what brought out what we call "progressive" in the first place. So weird to think that people are being obtuse and silly and off their rocker just to show off their talent ... I saw that a lot more on Rampal, than I did on the jazz flautist that made him look like a buffoon! It's not about the talent ... ITS ABOUT THE MUSIC! And then you see the humility on Segovia when a string broke, he continued in a different part of the guitar, and in the end, he asked if it sounded alright! Complexity, if often more measured by "our minds" not by a weights and measures kind of thing! Thus, the ideas behind it, are often so far and away that it is hilarious to think about it!
Edited by moshkito - April 29 2022 at 19:47 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Awesoreno
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 07 2019 Location: Culver City, CA Status: Offline Points: 2886 |
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I feel this way about Bubblemath. Their album Edit Peptide changed the way I thought about composing music.
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11415 |
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When people are in thrall to artists to this extent it's hardly surprising that so many warped personality cults have preyed upon their gullibility and unquestioning reverence.
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cstack3
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: July 20 2009 Location: Tucson, AZ USA Status: Offline Points: 6747 |
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Personally, I enjoy it when artists push themselves to their personal limits!
Steve Howe once said that he was criticized on "Relayer" for playing too fast....he said that made him want to play even faster!!
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I am not a Robot, I'm a FREE MAN!!
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edefakiel
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 17 2013 Location: Dos hermanas Status: Offline Points: 275 |
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It is a really interesting album, indeed. It is my second favorite band with 'math' in their name. After Shamblemaths.
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