Possible Problem With Modern Prog |
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MortSahlFan
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 01 2018 Location: US Status: Online Points: 2632 |
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Posted: June 14 2022 at 09:59 |
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I post on many forums, and it seems like 90% of the prog everyone loves is from the 70s... I was born in the 80s, so nostalgia plays no factor for me. Every time I do listen to a modern prog band, it's either no good, or it sounds like a 70s prog-rock band, using modern .. whatever. Production/engineering is one thing I'm picky about. I like a more organic sound, and 99% of drums are recorded horribly. The vocals are buried low, and for me, if the vocals aren't good, I'll go listen to something else. But I do love instrumentals. The idea of being "progressive" is to keep pushing boundaries, go further, incorporating more, expanding, but mainly just sounding good. The ears don't lie.
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carioca56
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Most progressive bands of the 70's could support themselves with music alone. With rare exceptions, musicians in current bands have to earn a living by other means. It's hard to produce masterpieces having to divide between working and making music.
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Grumpyprogfan
Forum Senior Member Joined: July 09 2019 Location: Kansas City Status: Offline Points: 10047 |
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Hearing is subjective. There is modern prog out there that sounds great to my ears. Drums included. Big Big Train, Antoine Fafard, Sanguine Hum, French TV, Helmet of Gnats, Izz, Hiromi, Dewa Budjana, Thieves' Kitchen, and many others.
Maybe you haven't found a modern band you enjoy? |
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Possibly because “like 90%” of the members on the many fora you frequent were around in the ‘70s or soon after. There is plenty of modern prog that is just as good or better than much of the prog of the ‘70s. Personal preference aside, there is usually a demographic bias towards the prog of the ‘70s. Add to this the fact that albums consistently given as being the best will continue to be discovered, in a self-perpetuating echo chamber. It will always be harder for a modern prog album to complete with those so well known from the ‘70s, and this has nothing necessarily to do with quality, so much as renown. (The two are, of course, not necessarily mutually exclusive, and I am not suggesting that.) There is absolutely no problem with modern prog. There are simply a lot of old farts with a preference for the old music. |
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Grumpyprogfan
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Stressed Cheese
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I have this experience as well, though I am open to enjoying, and have enjoyed modern prog bands as well. I think there's a couple of things at play:
1) Production/mixing. There's a lot of difference in how things sound from album to album, but also from era to era. That's not to say that all albums these days have production/mixing (or whatever, I'm not an audio engineer I don't know what the most correct term to use would be) I don't enjoy, or that all albums from back then had good production, but it does play a part. I'm a headphone user so I especially despise brickwalled/LOUD albums, and those are just more common these days than in the 70's. Production styles go in and out of style. I happen to enjoy the 70's a lot in that regard. 2) The definition of progressive rock. There's rock music that happens to be progressive, and music that falls into the genre known as prog(ressive) rock. Of course, there's also the umbrella term progressive rock, but if we're just focusing on progressive rock as a genre meaning the kind of music Genesis, Yes, King Crimson etc made back in the 70's (yes I know those bands have their differences too but I'm sure you know what I mean), I find that modern examples are usually not as inspired as the oldies. I don't know what it is (it's probably also got to do with production tbh), but you can just kind of...feel that they're derivative even if you can't put the finger on where they're deriving what from. And if you can, it's even worse. My point is, I personally get much more satisfaction from modern bands that actually do something new, like, say, black midi, than bands that are, e.g. Yes but now in the 21st century. Well, Yes still exist in the 21st century but you get my point. There's plenty of cool progressive rock as in, progressive rock the umbrella term. But I'm not as impressed by most artists that are just repeating the kinds of music bands were making 50+ years ago. 3) Sample bias. There's a ton of artists nowadays and it's easier to distribute music and get the word out via the internet, tons of genres and subgenres, and like nick_h_nz pointed out, there's those old albums that always will find a new audience because the previous audience will keep them alive. But that's also due to those albums standing the test of time and it just being a different era. Plus bands like Genesis, Yes, Tull, ELP, etc. are the foundation of the whole genre. Rock music is just in a different place these days - hell, music in general is. There aren't really those select few big artists that define modern prog as was the case for 70's prog. That said, this site has been good for finding modern artists that I do like. But there are differences between eras, and in my experience the chances of liking any random album from the 70's I try is much higher than liking any random album from, say, the 2010's.
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miamiscot
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I make no distinction: I love Prog, both old and new!!!
Keep at it. You just haven't found your new favorite band yet!!!
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The Prog Corner
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The Dark Elf
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Perhaps, as an old man yelling at clouds, the prog musicians from the 1970s were better songwriters. I believe the musical experiences of those prog pioneers came from singers and musicians from other genres, besides just the earlier rockers and rockabilly cats from the 50s. You had jazz, country and blues as mainstays of listening preference back then, and they were the main raison d'etre for these first proggers even getting into bands in the first place. Steve Howe had Chet Atkins, Ian Anderson loved Glenn Miller and Muddy Waters equally, David Gilmour had B.B. King and Leadbelly, for Peter Gabriel it was church hymns and R&B, even The Beatles, although perhaps fringe proto-prog, had a wealth of vaudeville music, classical composers and a love for Carl Perkins at their disposal.
So while the current crop of proggers are beyond musically proficient, I don't think they had the same steady diet of music other than rock growing up, and I think that shows in their compositions.
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14106 |
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In my view the good modern bands are to be found at the fringes of what we call "prog". Prog originates around 1969/70 and was fresh and progressive back then. It's logical that newer bands who follow their traces cannot be as original and fresh. That doesn't mean that fresh, original, and excellent music is not to be found; just "modern mainstream prog" is not the place to find them. It's the paradox intrinsic in having "prog" as a genre label that nothing that sits too comfortably within fixed genre boundaries can be very progressive. PS: I do believe, by the way, that the outburst of creativity in rock music that we had in 1967-1973 is without parallels. As much as I love quite a bit of new music.
Edited by Lewian - June 14 2022 at 15:27 |
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Atavachron
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You got that right, I miss the humanity of the old recordings-- tubes, mics that'd seen better days, 4-tracks, hungover singers, it all added a rich imperfection that much rock lacks now. Though they were saying the same thing in 1969. |
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Hugh Manatee
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For My part I think that the music scene and "prog" in particular was a lot more focused then. You had those bands that became huge and then a lot of lesser known bands that came and went very quickly. Time has chosen which bands have come to define the genre and those bands that came to define the genre did so over the course of time.
I believe that time will also tell which bands come to define neo-prog but I won't be around to see it because time takes time.
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Catcher10
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Recording music in a live studio setting back in the day was an art form. How the band, instruments and room was mic'd up is something totally lost for the most part in today's recordings. Main reason is that so much is done via home studios or pieced together via emailed music files. The magic a band has when all together in a studio for 1-2 weeks or longer recording an album is not the case anymore. Digital has created the push 3, 4 buttons and boom you have a "song", method. As well the loudness wars are still in full force, which totally sucks out all dynamics and everything becomes buried. It's like the saying goes "garbage in garbage out..." There are some modern prog bands that do spend the time and energy to engineer and produce well recorded albums...Those albums a joy to listen to.
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Dellinger
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I have a similar opinion. I too was born too late to experience the 70's first hand, but yet I feel there is something in those classic bands that is missing from newer music, and overall I find it more satisfying. I can enjoy modern prog, though, but often I find it less inspired. Now, my theory is, that when the classic prog bands of the 70's were around, they weren't trying to do prog... the term barely even existed, or not at all, so they were just doing their thing, rock, with certain caracteristics that ended up being prog. Newer bands already know the term prog and were created wanting to do that, so they have a certain set of characteristics that they consider makes music prog (length of the songs, time changes, instrumental passages, certain types of lyrics, and whatever), so they are checking the boxes when they write their music, and they must check them all. Older bands just happened to write them that way because that's how they wanted them to be, but they were not forcing themselves to do so and might just do it different if it suited the music better.
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Manuel
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There’s a big difference between being “prog” and being “progressive.” Prog has become more of a genre, characterized by long pieces, lots of instrumental parts, odd meter/time signatures, changes in tempo, etc. Progressive is more a way of writing music, where the artist challenges him/herself, pushes the boundaries of the music, and challenges the audience in the process. Add to this the fact that may artists these days have to earn a living doing something else, and that the industry does not seem to be willing to support adventurous music, and you have the current state of affairs in the music industry.
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nick_h_nz
Collaborator Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Ok, I have just realised, I think, that most people who are stating a preference for classic prog over modern prog seem to be comparing only the stuff that sounds kind of the same - and in that case, it’s hardly a surprise at all that the originals are what you go for. I love so much of ‘70s symphonic prog, but I find no attraction in the Wobblers and Flower Kings (etc.) of this world.
I’m not against retro stylings, but there needs to be something more than just a recreation of that sound. I love Beardfish, for example. But the best modern prog is that which doesn’t seek to emulate the ‘70s sounds, and if you’re listening only to that which does, it’s hardly surprising that it comes up short in comparison. Overall, though, if I had to choose between keeping the classic albums from the ‘70s I love, or the prog music of today, then I would choose today. |
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Zeph
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Would've been interesting to see people of all age groups do a rough ranking of their music, from the 70's to 2022. I wonder how the age aspect would affect the results.
I don't think there are problems with any age. Music evolve, and people listen to what they like. If someone won't put on anything produced in 1980 or later, by all means. Same goes for someone only listening to post 2000 music. I like old prog and modern prog. I listen more to new prog than old since I enjoy finding new music and don't want to listen to the same ~50 albums from the 70's that I like over and over. My musical is also always evolving. 20 years ago I was listening to Metallica and Dr. Dre. 10 years ago it was Porcupine Tree and Opeth. At some point it became more 70's prog, then working my way up to the 2000's again. Today it's a mix of everything, but the majority is music released the last five years.
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progaardvark
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I'm always listening to new stuff. I would say the ratio of post-1970s to 1970s is 9-to-1. So, I don't know what the problem is. Frankly, I don't really care if some folks are stuck in the 1970s. It's their loss, not mine.
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MortSahlFan
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Good points made above, especially what the musicians were influenced by. I took a listen to something random above, and it just sounded like Rush. Once a genre is defined, it seems to become self-conscious and management and even fans might start to expect things in the same ball-park. Even prog-rock bands. YES certainly changed in the 80s, as did many bands, which I think is ... condescending. "We'll give them what they like". Well, we liked your "far-out" stuff, and it was what got you to the top, so don't worry about something being too astray - you can cultivate an audience. It's like when you go to a concert, and a band plays songs they've never played. The "suits" think, "Decibels of fans screaming is down 10%, no good", not realizing (or not wanting to take chances - the minute you lose credibility) that people are half stunned, trying to take it all in. Sometimes a song needs a handful of listening. It's no different when a movie is marketed to a certain audience, like a gangster movie (Mikey and Nicky), but the movie is more dialogue-driven, slow tempo, and they were expecting Cagney or The Godfather. For anyone not sure about production/engineering, ask questions. I (or maybe someone else) can be specific. How something is recorded is one thing, but then you have some who keep computerizing it, where the drums don't sound like drums.. Then you have the mix. Volume levels. Drums seem very loud, vocals are buried (it was the opposite 60 yrs ago, when the bass/drums were so low, vocals high - pop/rock music, anyway). I like some reverb (echo), but again, it's all how you use it, which can separate the good from the great.
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Blacksword
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I was born in 1969, and started to listen to music maybe five years later. I became aware of what we call 'prog rock' in about 1981. Initially I took to bands like Marillion and what Rush were doing at the time, but to be honest I started looking backwards to the decade of my childhood to see what I had missed. Genesis, Tull, Yes, KC et al made a huge impression on me, and whenever I dipped into neo prog, it sounded somewhat lacking in depth. I probably listen to Pallas, IQ etc more these days, but at the time it left me a little cold.
Present day, I find myself listening to very little 'modern prog' I've been through the whole 'Porcupine Tree are incredible' phase, and I'm currently listening to Haken like there's no tomorrow. In short, I find modern prog is just as good in some regards; the quality of the musicianship, the standard of production, the live performance etc, but what's missing is the 'I've never heard anything like this before' reaction. It's not even a criticism, just a reaction to what my ears hear. |
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Grumpyprogfan
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Could you list some of these bands/artists that have horrible drum sounds? And who are the 1% who record drums correctly? |
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