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Possible Problem With Modern Prog

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SteveG View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 17 2022 at 12:12
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I would love to the neo prog tag jettisoned. It was appropriate for the 80s and 90s, but has since outlived its usefulness.


Neo-prog refers to a certain sound, it goes beyond the 80s and 90s. Just look at the Polish neo-prog scene in the 2000s for example. Smile
True, but I'm afraid that 2000s prog will called neo neo prog.

Edited by SteveG - June 17 2022 at 12:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 09:13
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

...
If there is any problem with modern prog then that would be that there is so much of it that very few bands will ever get the chance to be heard. Most of it these days is DIY and therefore relegated to a mere hobby as opposed to a professional career. This is good in that all artists can exist on an equal playing field and everyone has the chance to produce a great album but bad in that it generates a glut of mediocrity to muddle through.

It is what it is. There's no going back but to write off modern prog because it's not the same as classic prog is ridiculous.

Hi,

I agree here, although, I think this was a natural progression away from the control of the record companies, specially in the late 70's when the great corporate rape started buying out all the FM stations in America (and most of them were LOCAL and INDEPENDENT!), which took the music control away from the local start ups and all of a sudden only music from "established" record company stables were offered and considered "good" ... in essence the market for stuff done with a little help from the record companies, dried up just about over night.

That it is not the same these days, is because we're stuck in the SOUND and not the music. We EXPECT this and that to take place, and it doesn't, and it differs and there is very little respect for new materials and new ideas, which really hurt, and in my book, I do not consider these people "progressive" in their tastes of the music.

Agreed, that there are some outstanding things these days, for everyone's ears ... but we need to grow away from the "copy" of some of the originals, that had way more help at their start than most bands today. As such, it is very likely that some of the material today is actually better than before, but in my book we have to take the amplification OUT so we can look at the composition ... without it, we are stuck on the sound.

A far off example, is TARKUS, which is, an excellent Piano Concerto ... specially when you hear it on Rachel Flowers hands ... but even here, I don't think there are many folks that can see that, or know what a piano concerto is ... to be able to make that distinction ... and thus, all that is left? SONGS ... nothing but songs, and of course, none of the new material is any good because of it. So neo neo neon and whatever else is the only answer!


Edited by moshkito - June 18 2022 at 09:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 09:50
^ there are many original bands that have found their way beyond their influences but unfortunately most prog lovers find them too weird

I could name dozens of bands ranging from Secret Chiefs 3 to Satanique Samba Trio and yet most such bands have very few ratings

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 13:24
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ there are many original bands that have found their way beyond their influences but unfortunately most prog lovers find them too weird

I could name dozens of bands ranging from Secret Chiefs 3 to Satanique Samba Trio and yet most such bands have very few ratings


I like the arrangement on "Danse Macabre" and "Renunciation" (always had a thing for Middle-Eastern music), and the production isn't trendy for 2000. Very good violinist. I'll check out Satanique Samba Trio. Thank you.

You mention a lot of great bands with few ratings. I guess this is where we have to come in as fans, to get the word out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 14:02
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

...
we're stuck in the SOUND and not the music
...
we have to take the amplification OUT so we can look at the composition ... without it, we are stuck on the sound
...
I do not consider these people "progressive" in their tastes of the music
...
 
But isn't "sound" more "progressive" than "music"? After all, music has been with us for more than 400 years, whereas amplification and electronic processing has only been with us for less than 100 years. I like sound, and "classical" music pretty much all sounds the same to me because although the melodies, harmonies, rhythms, etc are different, the sameness of the orchestral instrumentation results in an insufficient sonic variety for "classical" pieces to be truly different from each other.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MortSahlFan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 16:13
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

...
we're stuck in the SOUND and not the music
...
we have to take the amplification OUT so we can look at the composition ... without it, we are stuck on the sound
...
I do not consider these people "progressive" in their tastes of the music
...
 
But isn't "sound" more "progressive" than "music"? After all, music has been with us for more than 400 years, whereas amplification and electronic processing has only been with us for less than 100 years. I like sound, and "classical" music pretty much all sounds the same to me because although the melodies, harmonies, rhythms, etc are different, the sameness of the orchestral instrumentation results in an insufficient sonic variety for "classical" pieces to be truly different from each other.
 



Good point you make about classical music sounding the same.. I will disagree, but I think I know what you mean. With a 4-piece band, each member is very vital.. With a 100-piece orchestra, playing the same instruments, playing the same pieces over and over (or variations - it's public domain)..

I'll go back to engineering/production... I haven't done this, but I'd like to compare the same classical piece every decade. I think things sounded best in the early 70s...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 16:45
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

^ there are many original bands that have found their way beyond their influences but unfortunately most prog lovers find them too weird

I could name dozens of bands ranging from Secret Chiefs 3 to Satanique Samba Trio and yet most such bands have very few ratings


I like the arrangement on "Danse Macabre" and "Renunciation" (always had a thing for Middle-Eastern music), and the production isn't trendy for 2000. Very good violinist. I'll check out Satanique Samba Trio. Thank you.

You mention a lot of great bands with few ratings. I guess this is where we have to come in as fans, to get the word out.


Yes! I should really make a list of underdog prog artists that deserve much more attention than they have gotten so far. That will be my next project on RYM and of course i'll share it here. The problem is that many old proggers are set in their ways and that the modern world of prog and music in general is overwhelming! It takes work to break through psychological barriers which prevent us from exploring and enjoying music in a totally different way but ultimately very satisfying. I used to hate growly vocals in metal for example and now i can't get enough of them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Man With Hat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 17:57
For me...I'm considering 'modern' to be from 2000 onwards. (Yes this is arbitrary, and I'm not terribly interested in a debate)


I would agree that albums made in the 70s had better instrument sounds. I just love the sound of the drums (for example) on the classic records by Can or KC or GG (and yes I'm aware some of those were made in the laste 60s). It's hard for me to think of a modern album that has a drum sound as good as those, at least for my ears. (Obviously sound quality is better for modern stuff as a whole).

The other two problems I run into for modern stuff (especially prog) is a) there seems to be more a predilection for saminess for certain aspects of music...particularly tempo or structure and b) a drive to at least attempt to have a doorway for some sort of more mainstream appeal...specifically shoehorning in vocals or vocal sections where it would certainly be better to stay instrumental. 

That said, I like modern stuff and certianly don't ignore it. I would say the majority of my purchases are new stuff (although admittedly the majority of that is probably from bands or artists that wouldn't be considered new). I would agree with whoever said that the biggest problem for modern prog (and music in general) is just getting the word out/rising above the din. (Bands shying away from CDs is also an issue for me, but taht is certainly more personal and I imagine I'm in the minority with that.) I'm bad with dates, but i do struggle to think of bands that started in 2010 or later that I know/enjoy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 19:04
Recorded last year. No denying these are some great drum sounds. Does not matter if you like the music. YouTube does not do them justice.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rottenprogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 18 2022 at 20:45
Originally posted by Man With Hat Man With Hat wrote:

For me...I'm considering 'modern' to be from 2000 onwards. (Yes this is arbitrary, and I'm not terribly interested in a debate)


I would agree that albums made in the 70s had better instrument sounds. I just love the sound of the drums (for example) on the classic records by Can or KC or GG (and yes I'm aware some of those were made in the laste 60s). It's hard for me to think of a modern album that has a drum sound as good as those, at least for my ears. (Obviously sound quality is better for modern stuff as a whole).

The other two problems I run into for modern stuff (especially prog) is a) there seems to be more a predilection for saminess for certain aspects of music...particularly tempo or structure and b) a drive to at least attempt to have a doorway for some sort of more mainstream appeal...specifically shoehorning in vocals or vocal sections where it would certainly be better to stay instrumental. 

That said, I like modern stuff and certianly don't ignore it. I would say the majority of my purchases are new stuff (although admittedly the majority of that is probably from bands or artists that wouldn't be considered new). I would agree with whoever said that the biggest problem for modern prog (and music in general) is just getting the word out/rising above the din. (Bands shying away from CDs is also an issue for me, but taht is certainly more personal and I imagine I'm in the minority with that.) I'm bad with dates, but i do struggle to think of bands that started in 2010 or later that I know/enjoy. 

There's no denying that the 1970s golden era of prog is incredibly rich and rewarding thus a lot of people tend to stick to bands from that era or modern bands who emulate that sound (which is their prerogative). I enjoy that era a lot as well but I'm also open to listening to what newer bands are doing because that's what progressive rock is all about: Going forward and exploring new musical horizons. 

I know it's an obvious example but Frank Zappa understood this more than most and that's why his music resonates to this day because of the sheer creativity and variety. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote edefakiel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2022 at 00:57
Is this the thread of having low openness to experience? There is no problem with modern prog, it has never been that much excellent music around than now. Of course that being from the 80's makes new things more difficult to appreciate, it has been discussed to death that our musical tastes get defined by age 13. I'm from 1992 and even I have had a difficult time adapting to modern sounding bands after spending my infancy listening to the LPs of Pink Floyd, ELP and Camel of my father. 

Even if you don't like the compositions, which I don't know how can happen, but it is a question of taste after all, the production is scientifically and objectively better. Many bands in the 70's didn't have equalization, quantization, proper mixing, etc. You just have to hear the remixes of Yes, Jethro Tull, Kind Crimson and Gentle Giant done by Steven Wilson to appreciate how much technology has improved the sonic quality of music.



If you don't think that this is pushing things further, I don't understand you:






Edited by edefakiel - June 19 2022 at 00:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2022 at 06:51
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

... 
But isn't "sound" more "progressive" than "music"? After all, music has been with us for more than 400 years, whereas amplification and electronic processing has only been with us for less than 100 years. I like sound, and "classical" music pretty much all sounds the same to me because although the melodies, harmonies, rhythms, etc are different, the sameness of the orchestral instrumentation results in an insufficient sonic variety for "classical" pieces to be truly different from each other.
 

Hi,

There are things that the "sound" has helped music with, and the placement on a stage is one of the important ones, as was seen earlier in the 20th century with Stokowski, changing the configuration of the orchestra so he could get more emphasis on a specific moment, or set of instruments. And later, Bernard Herrman did the same thing for a myriad of soundtracks.

However, I don't know, how to properly discuss some electronics ... if you take TD's Mysterious Semblance out of its incredible echoing and sequences, you lose the beautiful effect. Conversely, both The Edge and Andy Summers have shown that without some of the amplification and modifications, the music could not be played, and Andy showed one moment ... sounded awful ... totally awful ... but when he turned on the equipment ... a part of Roxanne!

I have no idea how to handle those things, but on a compositionally level, we could even discuss how Chris Squire loved tuning down a strong somewhere and then play two notes on this string and another together which created an incredibly different sound ... and this brings to mind, a story about Ry Cooder that told a guy that had written a book about his songs ... and in the end, Ry said ... it's all wrong ... you don't even know or ever mention any of the tunings ... and each song as at least one different such example. Likewise DD talking about KC, I think got him caught pants down ... trying to determine which note this or that was from Mr. Fripp, and he missed it ... the different tuning threw him off totally, and he did not acknowledge it or discuss it ... since this is NOT SOMETHING THAT CLASSICAL MUSIC DOES, or allows for that matter.

So in this sense, a lot of rock music has added quite a bit to the music notation and its history, but I see no issues with listing the different tuning and the notes played ... though some folks with screw their ears off when they hear that strong tuned differently ... didn't bother Chris Squire a bit at all! It's on a special on the tube and he shows it more than once ... basically the strings on each end got the most attention for different tunings!

It's a tough area, but I think it would be nice if we all arrived at a decent theory of relativity that helped put things in a much better perspective than "songs" ... which is not about theory whatsoever!

Music, progressive or not, needs to be about a reasonable theory ... not a law ... but reasonable theory!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RockHound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2022 at 12:18
I think one of the things we are dealing with is that Prog is more than 50 years old and is a maturing genre. The classic bands are foundational to the genre and thus have a very special place-they made history, and it has stuck. 

Newer bands are extremely good, but they are exploring some well-trodden terrain. The original bands had wide open spaces where they could carve out a distinct niche, whereas the newer bands are cursed by continual comparison to what has come before. I think you would find this true in any genre.

In a certain respect, it's like if you compose baroque music today-you'll be compared to Bach, Telemann, and Vivaldi as soon as you come out of the gate. Or think of the foundational Bop musicians-they laid the framework of modern jazz and hold that same special place the classic prog bands hold-or the foundational figures in any genre. 

There is still tons of great stuff coming out, and a lot of what has come out since 1990 gets as much play time from my library as the classic material. But I think it is best to think of newer music in terms of a mature genre rather than thinking we can magically reproduce the foundational years. That will be the case until some artist devises a new foundation, and it is not clear what the drivers of that new foundation may be—perhaps instrumentation, technology, or some other factor.


Edited by RockHound - June 22 2022 at 12:24
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2022 at 19:02
Originally posted by RockHound RockHound wrote:

...
The original bands had wide open spaces where they could carve out a distinct niche, whereas the newer bands are cursed by continual comparison to what has come before. I think you would find this true in any genre.
...

Hi,

I think that this is almost suggesting that a "genre" is about a copy of the originals, more or less, and thus only the first, or original get the credit and everyone else is 2nd banana. 

However, there is another comment here that is important ... "wide open spaces where they could carve out a distinct niche ... ", which suggests that within a "genre" those following, and after, are not capable of using similar/other wide open spaces, of all kinds, in order to create something more personal and new ... so in this sense, they would be a "copy" because all they can come up with and develop is the same "genre" ... to me, there are very few of these bands in my collection, and it is similar to the whole thing that started with MAGMA and got copied silly, because everyone had an idea now ... but none of them had the internal constitution to develop it as Christian Vander did with his group ... and all that says is that the society has poor educational facilities or that kids are not smart enough to find something different that is not the same or a part of their friend's circles.

Reminds me of the joke that Peter Michael Hamel gives us in his book ... a man is playing an instrument with one string and he keeps saying ... I got it ... I got it ... and everyone around him is looking at each other and going what? what?

We do the same for new music and stuff that tells genre's to take a flying leap into the tidal wave. So one could say that a better developed internal constitution is required, or at least the very desire to do something that is about "YOU" and not something else, or anyone else!

(Nice reply of yours btw!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2022 at 19:24
I would say that follow the genre paint themselves into that lack of wide open spaces. There are plenty of artists out there blurring lines and experimenting in their own wide open spaces. You just won't find them sitting in neat genre boxes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreamTechPlus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2022 at 06:08
I don't think this phenomenon is localised to prog. If nothing else there is still a pretty consistent output of albums being released in the genre, its stay at cultural relevance has simply declined for a number of reasons.

There are certain genres I can name that just don't get new albums anymore. When was the last time you heard a decently authentic roots reggae album?

Also the neo-prog tag is fine, and still apt. Keep it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2022 at 07:17
Originally posted by MortSahlFan MortSahlFan wrote:

...
I'll go back to engineering/production... I haven't done this, but I'd like to compare the same classical piece every decade. I think things sounded best in the early 70s...

Hi,

It's hard to say, but the foundation of the great studios and their engineering/production kinda died after the great ones in the 70's and 80's, and classical music has lost the majority of its touch because it is too expensive to put together the orchestra, rehearse it and then prepare to record it, when by that time the union states that you need a tea break, and when you are ready to play, it's time for lunch.

Such disregard for the music killed the great conductors that were still evident in the 50's, 60's and 70's and the so called "modern production" since Alan Parsons and the like, replaced the orchestra with 2nd and 3rd rate musicians ... synthesizers! (Meaning the composition of the orchestration itself was not good enough to even come close to classical!) ...

Interpretations were the LIFE of many pieces of music, and some did things better than others, or at least more emotional and exciting for your own appreciation ... but it's hard to not love Bernstein do Stravinsky, and Karajan do Beethoven and Leinsdorf doing Italian Operas ... no one can name a decent tenor or a name conductor these days, because of rock music and its very low standards of music (as simplistic as possible!) as opposed to well defined and designed composition, which a lot of the early "progressive music" showed beautifully --- which we still don't understand at all ... and can only think of it as "songs".

Today, the great studio engineer is the DAW and the person that plays with it ... and I like to tell folks about the bit in that one DVD with Lisa by Klaus Schulze where an engineer finds a small thread that you and I WILL NEVER FIND in his piece to make a small adjustment to it. It's nice and sounds perfect when done and we hear it separated from the piece, but when it is in the piece itself ... ??? good luck finding it!

That's what a lot of "engineering" has turned to ... something invisible that is meaningless in the long run and within the context of the piece itself ... WHICH WAS DONE LIVE not MEMOREX! If my name was KS, at that time, I would have said no!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2022 at 07:31
Originally posted by DreamTechPlus DreamTechPlus wrote:

...
There are certain genres I can name that just don't get new albums anymore. When was the last time you heard a decently authentic roots reggae album?
...

Hi,

Again, I think this is partially incorrect. That "genre" is not getting any new albums, BECAUSE ITS DESIGNATION WAS IMPROPER AND UNCLEAR in the first place, and now anything that is done which is "different" does not fit that GENRE!

It's a great case to get rid of GENRE's in my book ... many of which are simply confusing the issue about what music is and isn't. A Genre has NOTHING to do with music ... we don't go around calling Mozart, Beethoven or Bach or PDQ Bach as a genre ... well, sorry ... PDQ would be considered "satire" or "comedy" but the way it was done was as beautifully done as any original that has ever been!

Also, I think you hurt your well meant arguments by being elusive and very generic about what you say. I would imagine that your line I quoted would be stronger if you had afforded examples instead of an idea you have that you think we might ... agree with ... which I do not exactly, although I think you meant the right thing with it, but ended up kinda misrepresenting it!

I hate languages and how the meanings change ... give me The Goons anytime ... at least they make sense!

I RESIGN!


Edited by moshkito - June 23 2022 at 07:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DreamTechPlus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 23 2022 at 07:33
I am too much of a pragmatist to throw the baby out with the bathwater on the genre labels front.

Love, DreamTechPlus.
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