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Could TLLDOB be considered proto- neo prog?

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Neu!mann View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Neu!mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 15:35
I would answer yes, but only if you consider In The Court Of The Crimson King a landmark Post-Proto Progressive album.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 16:55
In future, Rock and Roll and Doo Wop must be referred to as proto rock. Now, if I can only figure out who was proto raggae.

Edited by SteveG - June 30 2022 at 16:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 18:13
I only wonder if it's True Prog.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 21:17
My understanding is that Neo Prog bands in general took most of their influence from mid to late prog Genesis and classic era Pink Floyd, so sure. The Lamb can be considered proto neo prog if you like, but I'm pretty sure those prefixes are trying to cancel each other out, lol.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Manuel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 21:33
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

it is a concept album. it is not uncommon at all that there are shorter songs in a concept album when the incident to be described doesn't require a long song, the concept should be seen as a whole.

there are albums that almost completely consist of short songs but nevertheless are prog rock albums, for example "Lucky Leif and the Longships" by Robert Calvert
I absolutely agree with you. Itís a whole concept, not a collection of individual songs, and is as prog as it can be, no matter the length of the songs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 30 2022 at 21:54
Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

My understanding is that Neo Prog bands in general took most of their influence from mid to late prog Genesis and classic era Pink Floyd, so sure. The Lamb can be considered proto neo prog if you like, but I'm pretty sure those prefixes are trying to cancel each other out, lol.

Not really because I'm referring to neo as a genre and not so much as a timeline kind of thing. Proto basically means an early version of. So for me it could be translated to an early version of neo prog. That's all. There's no magic to it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2022 at 01:14
I made a similar comment but about Trick of the Tail (as mentioned earlier by another as well). And I did (half-seriously) offer the term proto neo-prog. So I'm glad I'm not alone in finding the name and concept amusing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2022 at 07:28
Originally posted by Awesoreno Awesoreno wrote:

I made a similar comment but about Trick of the Tail (as mentioned earlier by another as well). And I did (half-seriously) offer the term proto neo-prog. So I'm glad I'm not alone in finding the name and concept amusing.

Did people take your post a bit too seriously too and accuse you of trying to make up a new genre? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Awesoreno Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 01 2022 at 22:59
Oh 100%. That totally happened. Just as it is now.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sacro_Porgo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2022 at 01:43
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Sacro_Porgo Sacro_Porgo wrote:

My understanding is that Neo Prog bands in general took most of their influence from mid to late prog Genesis and classic era Pink Floyd, so sure. The Lamb can be considered proto neo prog if you like, but I'm pretty sure those prefixes are trying to cancel each other out, lol.

Not really because I'm referring to neo as a genre and not so much as a timeline kind of thing. Proto basically means an early version of. So for me it could be translated to an early version of neo prog. That's all. There's no magic to it. 

I mean I'm being a bit tongue in cheek with that last sentence (hence the lol at the end), but I did post before I read the rest of the thread, so I wasn't aware everyone else was already giving you flack for it.

As far as the music is concerned, yeah, The Lamb I think was a dramatic shift in Genesis' sound that was much closer to the synthier stuff on ATOTT and especially W&W than it was anything that had come before it, and my understanding remains the same that those mid to late 70s Genesis records were a big influence on bands like Marillion and Pendragon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 02 2022 at 06:52
Originally posted by Manuel Manuel wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

it is a concept album. it is not uncommon at all that there are shorter songs in a concept album when the incident to be described doesn't require a long song, the concept should be seen as a whole.

there are albums that almost completely consist of short songs but nevertheless are prog rock albums, for example "Lucky Leif and the Longships" by Robert Calvert
I absolutely agree with you. Itís a whole concept, not a collection of individual songs, and is as prog as it can be, no matter the length of the songs.

Hi,

The only issue I have with this, is however weird, illusory or different it might be, it just about says that every album is a sort of concept ... the differentiation of which goes all over. 

Calvert's album is a concept, and it has a bit of a story in it, with Vivian Stanshall (now I gotta recheck it!!!), but if you take those small bits out, the album would probably fail the idea of a concept ... which to me suggests that the whole thing was a nice idea, but did not exactly come together as hoped for.

To me, TLLDOB is a wonderful album, but I'm not sure what kind of story/book/novel you or I are reading to call it a "concept" whose story is probably unclear and has some odd parts in it ... and then ... the worst ... they throw it all away in the end to appease the record company with one song! That alone says to me ... the concept is crap anyway ... otherwise the band would not have allowed it, AND would have maintained their integrity ... and in the foldout on MM when PG left this was one large issue, that ... almost was not answered so PG would not say anything not nice.

There is no "subjectivity" in the selection of a "concept" ... it is either clear, or it doesn't cut the mustard, or has lousy collard greens instead of lettuce on it! I'm not even sure why this discussion went to "concept" when the idea that the album is neo prog or proto prog or bss prog or phd prog or idiot's prog ... is just another idea to deny the band's interest and attention to their own material that they worked hard to put together. We continually downgrade artists because of this ... look ... it doesn't matter which it is ... Picasso is dead and he is recognized as a great ... so eat your ideas and go home! Genesis, Yes, ELP, KC, PF ... and a couple of others will also fall into the same area ... and we, here, arguing about the color of the wall in your kitchen or bathroom, is beyond ridiculous! Tongue


Edited by moshkito - July 02 2022 at 06:54
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 01:13
^ based the enlightened comments above can I suggest we now close down the site (preferably opening a new one and not telling Moshkito lol)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 01:23
I don't see how calling TLLDOB proto-neo-prog helps with anything. Confused Obviously Genesis was an influence on neo-prog (and some others, too), some even considered neo-prog to be a continuation of symph-prog for the 80s (I have seen this opinion many times here on PA). 

Usually the "proto" prefix helps understand the origins of a genre (proto-prog, proto-metal, proto-punk), it does not become a genre name IMO. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 07:03
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

^ based the enlightened comments above can I suggest we now close down the site (preferably opening a new one and not telling Moshkito lol)

Hi,

Yeah ... an inch over the top, but I wonder why folks consider this so important ... for example ... you don't listen to Beethoven because he is "romantic" (or from that period) and you don't listen to Bach because he is "baroque", just like you don't listen to Stravinsky because he is ... hmmmm ... surrealistic?

I think that after a point, and 50 years is probably a "good" point to judge the appreciation, that these discussions should ... well, not sure we can remove them, but a foot down a little bit to help keep the definitions in a proper working condition, would be preferable ... but given that thought, I'm not sure that many of us would even consider, or be able to, help "define" and help the definitions that were created by non-musicians that loved copies, stay up stronger than ever ... instead, it feels like they are being diluted and consequently it will render a lot of work meritless ... which would be a shame.

Already, I can tell you that almost anything "proto" or "neo" is not a major player in my collection, to give you an idea ... and a lot of the music does not excite me, as material that is much more original does. 




Edited by moshkito - July 04 2022 at 07:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 07:21
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I don't see how calling TLLDOB proto-neo-prog helps with anything. Confused Obviously Genesis was an influence on neo-prog (and some others, too), some even considered neo-prog to be a continuation of symph-prog for the 80s (I have seen this opinion many times here on PA). 

Usually the "proto" prefix helps understand the origins of a genre (proto-prog, proto-metal, proto-punk), it does not become a genre name IMO. 



Wow dude. Relax. Can't people just have a bit of fun around here and offer up some speculation without people getting offended by it?

As for the prefix, that's exactly right and I wasn't trying to turn it into a genre either (which I already explained). However, proto prog, proto metal and proto punk are all genres to some people.


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - July 04 2022 at 07:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 08:03
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

I don't see how calling TLLDOB proto-neo-prog helps with anything. Confused Obviously Genesis was an influence on neo-prog (and some others, too), some even considered neo-prog to be a continuation of symph-prog for the 80s (I have seen this opinion many times here on PA). 

Usually the "proto" prefix helps understand the origins of a genre (proto-prog, proto-metal, proto-punk), it does not become a genre name IMO. 



Wow dude. Relax. Can't people just have a bit of fun around here and offer up some speculation without people getting offended by it?

As for the prefix, that's exactly right and I wasn't trying to turn it into a genre either (which I already explained). However, proto prog, proto metal and proto punk are all genres to some people.

I am relaxed and i am not offended. I don't know how you think I am offended, or angry. Confused
Just saying what I think. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 08:33
^The confused face emoji made me think you were perturbed by my comments. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Cristi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 08:42
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

^The confused face emoji made me think you were perturbed by my comments. 

perturbed, no.
confused, kind of.

My post was not a criticism of you, sorry you saw it that way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 10:28
My bathroom wall is a light gray color. Believe it or not, my toilet is also gray. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 04 2022 at 11:30
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

My bathroom wall is a light gray color. Believe it or not, my toilet is also gray. 


Tony Banks lyric:

"Stone still at my feet, it's grey matches my thinking"   
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