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What did you think "progressive rock" meant?

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presdoug View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 07 2022 at 19:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

(welcome btw, if you have not been welcomed!)

Thanks!

I do hope you realize I was jokingly copy-pasting the wikipedia description of Progressive Rock in that post Tongue


Hi,

I'm not a great fan of the Wiki stuff and (in general) too much of their material is not clean, and has no intelligence whatsoever, as if it was written by folks that only knew some rock music, never went to a theater, never went to see a film other than the generic top ten crap that is not even considered artistic, although the media advertising for it, makes it seem like the latest action cartoon is the best thing since sliced bread!

However, I come from a high level literary family, so it is very easy for me to see, and think that the artistic side is more important than a mere hit song ... although I would say that a lot of the academic stuff around it is just as bad as the "fandom" around the advertisements of the latest something or other ... and no one seems to realize how the media only talks about the things they support AND OWN ... in order to prevent the "independents" from making headway ... and in many ways this is the big was on the Internet, that I can only hope that the huge corporate cartels do not eventually buy everything for ten cents ... and turn the whole thing into just another TV set, or lousy radio station!

In this sense, we don't realize much what "progressive" really meant at the time, and how those people created so much work ... but without a place for it to live and be "seen" and "heard", it is rather difficult. 

I, originally, joined the PA folks because I thought this would be a great place for discussing new things ... and in the past many years it has gotten worse with too many threads about the top this or that, and yet another fan asking which guitarist is best of his list of 5 because he/she does not hear anything else! It is sad, in so many ways, and a total regression of what the term "progressive" really meant ... but I think that folks got too stoned, and drunk ... to even know the difference ... something stupid like that!
Sometimes, moshkito, I feel in some of your posts it is like you are talking down to some people around here, and you are up on your high horse.... I have been a wiki editor for a bit in the past-I wrote the wiki entry for musician/producer/engineer Dirk Steffens, and also contributed greatly to the wiki page for Helmut Koellen (it was just a stub until I expanded it) and I find your definition of a wiki writer to be insulting. Also, I kind of enjoy "Top 10 lists" of best guitarist or whomever around here, and I don't spend my time getting stoned and drunk, ever.....people get involved in those lists because they have something to say, not that they are sad cases.... again your tone is pretty insulting, and I don't like it!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 01:38
As a kid at home in the early 70s we called it Symphonic Rock, or the earlier 60s stuff was called Psychedelic, Hippie or Underground music. I don't remember exactly when did I make the connection to the broader term Progressive Rock.

At any rate the term Progressive Music was already used in Spain back in 1970 to refer to music that went beyond the commercial 3 minutes pop songs.

Poster of the "1st Festival Permanente de la Música Progresiva", Barcelona 1970, lineup at the bottom





Poster of the "1st Festival Internacional de Música Progresiva", Granollers (Barcelona) 1971




Lineup of the same Festival Granollers 1971




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stressed Cheese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 03:06
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


I'm not a great fan of the Wiki stuff and (in general) too much of their material is not clean, and has no intelligence whatsoever, as if it was written by folks that only knew some rock music, never went to a theater, never went to see a film other than the generic top ten crap that is not even considered artistic, although the media advertising for it, makes it seem like the latest action cartoon is the best thing since sliced bread!

However, I come from a high level literary family, so it is very easy for me to see, and think that the artistic side is more important than a mere hit song ... although I would say that a lot of the academic stuff around it is just as bad as the "fandom" around the advertisements of the latest something or other ... and no one seems to realize how the media only talks about the things they support AND OWN ... in order to prevent the "independents" from making headway ... and in many ways this is the big was on the Internet, that I can only hope that the huge corporate cartels do not eventually buy everything for ten cents ... and turn the whole thing into just another TV set, or lousy radio station!

Okay, but that has very little to do with whether someone is able to write a good encyclopedia-style summary page of something, which is ultimately what wikipedia does and does pretty well (for most big pages anyway). There are certainly problems with wikipedia, but most big pages have plenty of (credible) sources listed, so it doesn't matter if the people who wrote them is from a 'literary' family or only watches Marvel movies. That has no effect on whether someone is able to write wikipedia pages well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BaldJean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 03:28
fun fact: I wrote the first Wikipedia entry for Hawkwind. absolutely nothing of my original entry is in today's entry for them


Edited by BaldJean - July 08 2022 at 03:29


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 04:53
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:


Hi,

I'm not a great fan of the Wiki stuff and (in general) too much of their material is not clean, and has no intelligence whatsoever, as if it was written by folks that only knew some rock music, never went to a theater, never went to see a film other than the generic top ten crap that is not even considered artistic, although the media advertising for it, makes it seem like the latest action cartoon is the best thing since sliced bread!

However, I come from a high level literary family, so it is very easy for me to see, and think that the artistic side is more important than a mere hit song ... although I would say that a lot of the academic stuff around it is just as bad as the "fandom" around the advertisements of the latest something or other ... and no one seems to realize how the media only talks about the things they support AND OWN ... in order to prevent the "independents" from making headway ... and in many ways this is the big was on the Internet, that I can only hope that the huge corporate cartels do not eventually buy everything for ten cents ... and turn the whole thing into just another TV set, or lousy radio station!

In this sense, we don't realize much what "progressive" really meant at the time, and how those people created so much work ... but without a place for it to live and be "seen" and "heard", it is rather difficult. 

I, originally, joined the PA folks because I thought this would be a great place for discussing new things ... and in the past many years it has gotten worse with too many threads about the top this or that, and yet another fan asking which guitarist is best of his list of 5 because he/she does not hear anything else! It is sad, in so many ways, and a total regression of what the term "progressive" really meant ... but I think that folks got too stoned, and drunk ... to even know the difference ... something stupid like that!

Patronizing much?

If you hate everyone here so much and value our opinions so little why the heck to you stay?

I'm off to create a top 10 poll of classic 70's prog guitarists! 
Ian

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https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 04:57
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Sometimes, moshkito, I feel in some of your posts it is like you are talking down to some people around here, and you are up on your high horse....

Sometimes? LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thief Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 05:38
Well, my pops listened to a ton of music those days, but referred to Yes/Genesis as "rock" iirc.

So first I heard the music, and then learnt there is "progressive rock" moniker. It made sense. VDGG, KC or Gentle Giant differed wildly from Led Zeppelin or Deep Purple for sure.

From that moment, there was either "hard rock" that ruled, "progressive rock" - that took skill and was beautiful and intriguing; and then there was regular, vanilla "rock", that didn't interest me at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 07:13
Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
 Sometimes, moshkito, I feel in some of your posts it is like you are talking down to some people around here, and you are up on your high horse.... I have been a wiki editor for a bit in the past-I wrote the wiki entry for musician/producer/engineer Dirk Steffens, and also contributed greatly to the wiki page for Helmut Koellen (it was just a stub until I expanded it) and I find your definition of a wiki writer to be insulting.
...
Hi,

I think you are reading too much into it and not taking in consideration the very different upbringing that I went through to end up feeling like that.

My issue with "Wiki" is that it does not have, exactly, a quality control, and a process with which they allow someone to write on this and that and tomorrow, someone else's write up is removed by, or replaced, by something with very little artistic value ... as if the "reality" of the art itself, was not important, and within rock music, art is a joke, and just another song, which is sad in many ways, and I doubt that in my lifetime, many of those "song" folks will figure out how to respect their appreciation with a little more than a goddammed blue guitar, 6 strings, 8 strings, 10 strings, 12 strings, and a dancing keyboard, or some other kind of idiocy that has not as much to do with the music, as it did with the time that it came up in the first place. It was no coincidence that things were not "impressed" with 2001, and many other movies (for example) and that they had to show on stage that it was just as powerful ... and many bands did, and showed up, even if today we kinda look at it as too much, but the hundred million dollar horrible light show for the latest Genesis show is mentioned ... wow ... I'm impressed that I stayed home and did not waste a cent! For a "show" that had nothing to help define the music itself, beyond just another hit.

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
again your tone is pretty insulting, and I don't like it!

Right ... and you are nitpicking on me and ignoring some other things in Ukraine and the rest of the world. Reality, for many, is not insulting ... but for those that have an image, or a romantic idea of what they like, seeing a different reality is scary and (of course) ... insulting.

I'm fighting for an art form. Your comments are about screw the art form because of one person you happen to not like or enjoy reading for a reason or two. I'm not into creating lies and falsehoods, to get my comments out ... and I am a writer and published and don't need your opinion on anything I do or write. 

IF I DID, I would not be "progressive" and an "artist". Maybe you don't want to get this truth ... but that is another story.


Edited by moshkito - July 08 2022 at 07:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Davesax1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 07:33
Gentlemen, gentlemen. ;-)

Seriously, "progressive rock" is just a label applied after the fact by the music industry. 

As a few people here have mentioned, we didn't have a name for it way back then. I have a big problem with "musical genres" being named - you end up with about 100 different subgenres of heavy metal (one genre is arguably too much there, but just personal opinion, folks.) 

What it's called doesn't really matter. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 08:12
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
 Sometimes, moshkito, I feel in some of your posts it is like you are talking down to some people around here, and you are up on your high horse.... I have been a wiki editor for a bit in the past-I wrote the wiki entry for musician/producer/engineer Dirk Steffens, and also contributed greatly to the wiki page for Helmut Koellen (it was just a stub until I expanded it) and I find your definition of a wiki writer to be insulting.
...
Hi,

I think you are reading too much into it and not taking in consideration the very different upbringing that I went through to end up feeling like that.

My issue with "Wiki" is that it does not have, exactly, a quality control, and a process with which they allow someone to write on this and that and tomorrow, someone else's write up is removed by, or replaced, by something with very little artistic value ... as if the "reality" of the art itself, was not important, and within rock music, art is a joke, and just another song, which is sad in many ways, and I doubt that in my lifetime, many of those "song" folks will figure out how to respect their appreciation with a little more than a goddammed blue guitar, 6 strings, 8 strings, 10 strings, 12 strings, and a dancing keyboard, or some other kind of idiocy that has not as much to do with the music, as it did with the time that it came up in the first place. It was no coincidence that things were not "impressed" with 2001, and many other movies (for example) and that they had to show on stage that it was just as powerful ... and many bands did, and showed up, even if today we kinda look at it as too much, but the hundred million dollar horrible light show for the latest Genesis show is mentioned ... wow ... I'm impressed that I stayed home and did not waste a cent! For a "show" that had nothing to help define the music itself, beyond just another hit.

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
again your tone is pretty insulting, and I don't like it!

Right ... and you are nitpicking on me and ignoring some other things in Ukraine and the rest of the world. 

What the chuffing hell does Ukraine have to do with this? Is that your way of avoiding having to make an apology?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 08:16
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (3) Thanks(3)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 08:40
Chances of Pedro making an apology - 0%
Chances of Pedro making another condescending rambling post about his history as a fine art connoisseur and the fact that the Neanderthals don't understand what progressive mean plus a bonus reference to Guy Guden's radio show - 100%  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 10:10
Don't look now, but the real problem is the OP posting this ridiculous thread! Sleepy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jayem Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 10:39
"Funny music by crazy guys" or "baroque" was how a fellow pupil described King Crimson's Islands when he presented it to me (we were mid-teenage). I found the music rather depressing and would esp call Sailor's Tale "music that tells the story of a shipwreck". Another comrade found Red and Discipline on a tape in the school library and introduced them to me so I became the more curious and got some info in bookshops where KC was called "progressive rock"... This made it simplier to describe from then on !

I was happy to have discovered what I'd thought were hidden musical gems (I'd realize later that they weren't that hidden... ). It was like a true sonic secret garden.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote presdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 11:38
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
 Sometimes, moshkito, I feel in some of your posts it is like you are talking down to some people around here, and you are up on your high horse.... I have been a wiki editor for a bit in the past-I wrote the wiki entry for musician/producer/engineer Dirk Steffens, and also contributed greatly to the wiki page for Helmut Koellen (it was just a stub until I expanded it) and I find your definition of a wiki writer to be insulting.
...
Hi,

I think you are reading too much into it and not taking in consideration the very different upbringing that I went through to end up feeling like that.

My issue with "Wiki" is that it does not have, exactly, a quality control, and a process with which they allow someone to write on this and that and tomorrow, someone else's write up is removed by, or replaced, by something with very little artistic value ... as if the "reality" of the art itself, was not important, and within rock music, art is a joke, and just another song, which is sad in many ways, and I doubt that in my lifetime, many of those "song" folks will figure out how to respect their appreciation with a little more than a goddammed blue guitar, 6 strings, 8 strings, 10 strings, 12 strings, and a dancing keyboard, or some other kind of idiocy that has not as much to do with the music, as it did with the time that it came up in the first place. It was no coincidence that things were not "impressed" with 2001, and many other movies (for example) and that they had to show on stage that it was just as powerful ... and many bands did, and showed up, even if today we kinda look at it as too much, but the hundred million dollar horrible light show for the latest Genesis show is mentioned ... wow ... I'm impressed that I stayed home and did not waste a cent! For a "show" that had nothing to help define the music itself, beyond just another hit.

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
again your tone is pretty insulting, and I don't like it!

Right ... and you are nitpicking on me and ignoring some other things in Ukraine and the rest of the world. Reality, for many, is not insulting ... but for those that have an image, or a romantic idea of what they like, seeing a different reality is scary and (of course) ... insulting.

I'm fighting for an art form. Your comments are about screw the art form because of one person you happen to not like or enjoy reading for a reason or two. I'm not into creating lies and falsehoods, to get my comments out ... and I am a writer and published and don't need your opinion on anything I do or write. 

IF I DID, I would not be "progressive" and an "artist". Maybe you don't want to get this truth ... but that is another story.
And so all you are capable of doing is getting defensive and insulting me further! Despite the background you come from and go on and on about in your posts, you don't seem to have much of an understanding of how you come across to people. Yes, I am aware that wikipedia is a mixed blessing and not perfect, but you make sweeping generalisations about things sometimes and you don't get it when you are putting down someone and how that makes someone feel. I  don't understand you. I do not live under a rock, and am aware of what is happening in the world, like in Ukraine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 12:02
Mosh, Mosh, Mosh. Where's old Dean when you need him? LOL

Edited by SteveG - July 08 2022 at 12:03
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote progaardvark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 15:26
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

My issue with "Wiki" is that it does not have, exactly, a quality control, and a process with which they allow someone to write on this and that and tomorrow, someone else's write up is removed by, or replaced, by something with very little artistic value ... as if the "reality" of the art itself, was not important, and within rock music, art is a joke, and just another song, which is sad in many ways, and I doubt that in my lifetime, many of those "song" folks will figure out how to respect their appreciation with a little more than a goddammed blue guitar, 6 strings, 8 strings, 10 strings, 12 strings, and a dancing keyboard, or some other kind of idiocy that has not as much to do with the music, as it did with the time that it came up in the first place. It was no coincidence that things were not "impressed" with 2001, and many other movies (for example) and that they had to show on stage that it was just as powerful ... and many bands did, and showed up, even if today we kinda look at it as too much, but the hundred million dollar horrible light show for the latest Genesis show is mentioned ... wow ... I'm impressed that I stayed home and did not waste a cent! For a "show" that had nothing to help define the music itself, beyond just another hit.

Bar-built estuaries are found in a place where the deposition of sediment has kept pace with rising sea levels so that the estuaries are shallow and separated from the sea by sand spits or barrier islands. They are relatively common in tropical and subtropical locations. These estuaries are semi-isolated from ocean waters by barrier beaches (barrier islands and barrier spits). Formation of barrier beaches partially encloses the estuary, with only narrow inlets allowing contact with the ocean waters. Bar-built estuaries typically develop on gently sloping plains located along tectonically stable edges of continents and marginal sea coasts. They are extensive along the Atlantic and Gulf coasts of the U.S. in areas with active coastal deposition of sediments and where tidal ranges are less than 4 m (13 ft). The barrier beaches that enclose bar-built estuaries have been developed in several ways:
  • building up of offshore bars by wave action, in which sand from the seafloor is deposited in elongated bars parallel to the shoreline,
  • reworking of sediment discharge from rivers by a wave, current, and wind action into beaches, overwash flats, and dunes,
  • engulfment of mainland beach ridges (ridges developed from the erosion of coastal plain sediments around 5000 years ago) due to sea level rise and resulting in the breaching of the ridges and flooding of the coastal lowlands, forming shallow lagoons, and
  • elongation of barrier spits from the erosion of headlands due to the action of longshore currents, with the spits growing in the direction of the littoral drift.
----------
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the walls have hearsay
he go to four feet
take the moon with the teeth
he has a good beak
the stone as roll not heap up not foam
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote The Dark Elf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 08 2022 at 16:58
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Chances of Pedro making an apology - 0%
Chances of Pedro making another condescending rambling post about his history as a fine art connoisseur and the fact that the Neanderthals don't understand what progressive mean plus a bonus reference to Guy Guden's radio show - 100%  

Hi,  

You might add in how he was born talentless in a talented family but somehow thinks that because of parental proximity, and the fact he saw someone in a concert or saw a Broadway play that he somehow has some superior opinions that transcend everyone else's obviously pedestrian opinions because..."songs". 

STFU. 
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to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 10 2022 at 02:47
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Chances of Pedro making an apology - 0%
Chances of Pedro making another condescending rambling post about his history as a fine art connoisseur and the fact that the Neanderthals don't understand what progressive mean plus a bonus reference to Guy Guden's radio show - 100%  
LOL


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote RockHound Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2022 at 10:57
I like the estuary discussion. The concept has continually evolved. A lot of early literature characterized estuaries as coastal areas with low salinity, which made the term rather nebulous with respect to depositional environment.

Since Exxon and the associated geological minions unleashed seismic and sequence stratigraphy on the world, estuaries had a crisped up conceptual framework built around marine flooding of incised river valleys.

It’s interesting how concepts of estuaries have evolved. Concepts of progressive rock have also evolved considerably. In the early days many would not have considered Pink Floyd and Zappa as progressive rock. Nowadays they seem so obviously to be core parts of progressive rock. Amazing what more than half a century of hindsight brings!
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