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presdoug View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 22 2022 at 13:16
Could not find the thread for this Doug, but here he is talking about my favorite band!
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Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Could not find the thread for this Doug, but here he is talking about my favorite band!


I think the thread is under General Music, glad he is doing stuff like Triumvirat.
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It's been a while since anyone here has posted a Daily Doug episode. I've been keeping my eye on them but haven't posted here about any of them for a while.
 
 



Edited by I prophesy disaster - August 22 2022 at 14:05
No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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^^Thanks, guys, I added it to the thread for him, as well.Hug

Edited by presdoug - August 22 2022 at 14:10
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Hey y'all

Edited by mellotronwave - August 24 2022 at 13:57
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Originally posted by mellotronwave mellotronwave wrote:

Hey y'll

Hey y'all.......Clap


Edited by Catcher10 - August 23 2022 at 15:05
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^Hey uhaul!LOL
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Hi,

It was nice ... so actually see him doing something else, other than the same old same old same old stuff that sounds the same.

I'm not sure that I ever really thought of Triumvirate as a "copy" of anyone else, given that the instruments available at the time were all the same ... and I wonder how much we think it is a "copy" simply because the same instrument is used. I don't think we do that to the violin, over 400 years of its life, for example, so why do we do this for everything that we know of rock music in the past 50 years?

I always thought that the musicianship was the important part, not the sound itself! And to me, this is what separates the best from the rest!
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

It was nice ... so actually see him doing something else, other than the same old same old same old stuff that sounds the same.

I'm not sure that I ever really thought of Triumvirate as a "copy" of anyone else, given that the instruments available at the time were all the same ... and I wonder how much we think it is a "copy" simply because the same instrument is used. I don't think we do that to the violin, over 400 years of its life, for example, so why do we do this for everything that we know of rock music in the past 50 years?

I always thought that the musicianship was the important part, not the sound itself! And to me, this is what separates the best from the rest!
  Interesting post, and thought -provoking; thanks!
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I like Doug - especially when he covers Iron Maiden.
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Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

It was nice ... so actually see him doing something else, other than the same old same old same old stuff that sounds the same.

I'm not sure that I ever really thought of Triumvirate as a "copy" of anyone else, given that the instruments available at the time were all the same ... and I wonder how much we think it is a "copy" simply because the same instrument is used. I don't think we do that to the violin, over 400 years of its life, for example, so why do we do this for everything that we know of rock music in the past 50 years?

I always thought that the musicianship was the important part, not the sound itself! And to me, this is what separates the best from the rest!
  Interesting post, and thought -provoking; thanks!

Hi,

I suppose that my view on "music" is very different from a lot of "modern" rock music. 

For hundreds of years, almost all music was about the "movement" of the music ... not the beat. So, it is disappointing that we stand here and look at all this rock music (specially progressive) as the same as all the pop music around, which is written in the simplistic of terms, compared to the history of classical music, and even things like opera and other symphonies that had over 30 lines of notes on a score sheet ... thus, for me, the combinations and sound of all that stuff is far more interesting to my ear, than some folks here wondering about such things as ... it is 19/8 or 69/13? It's ridiculous and it takes away the possibility that musicians can have some freedom with all music.

I even remember Miles ... and it would be hard to say (and likely incorrect) that he was "with" the band when he came and went on his own, very different, and at various different ranges, and all the band could do is maintain a bottom line for him to fall back on. But in between? Only Robert Fripp does anything that close.

It just bothers me, that we talk about this stuff as if it were kindergarten stuff, and I don't like DD showing his preference for drums, unless he is making fun of all the classical music he knows that did not have any, and then not realize how limiting the majority of drummers are to the music in their band. Some stand out well, and color special moments in such a way and they might return to the same "beat" again, but generally, it's not about the beat ... it's about the music itself, and where it goes.

I find that DD misses the mark in making the music better, instead of bringing it down to the level of pop music. Triumvirat, like a lot of bands (specially the ones that showed up on HARVEST at the time), were not about the drums ... or the keyboards. To me they were about the wholesome piece of music they were able to put together.

I, honestly, do not find DD that great, otherwise he would have given a listen to much more serious rock music out there ... and he doesn't have the guts to tackle Banco, for example, or PFM, both of which he would probably bring down to a comparison, and not be able to showcase their musicianship and ability for a very long time.
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

It was nice ... so actually see him doing something else, other than the same old same old same old stuff that sounds the same.

I'm not sure that I ever really thought of Triumvirate as a "copy" of anyone else, given that the instruments available at the time were all the same ... and I wonder how much we think it is a "copy" simply because the same instrument is used. I don't think we do that to the violin, over 400 years of its life, for example, so why do we do this for everything that we know of rock music in the past 50 years?

I always thought that the musicianship was the important part, not the sound itself! And to me, this is what separates the best from the rest!
  Interesting post, and thought -provoking; thanks!

Hi,

I suppose that my view on "music" is very different from a lot of "modern" rock music. 

For hundreds of years, almost all music was about the "movement" of the music ... not the beat. So, it is disappointing that we stand here and look at all this rock music (specially progressive) as the same as all the pop music around, which is written in the simplistic of terms, compared to the history of classical music, and even things like opera and other symphonies that had over 30 lines of notes on a score sheet ... thus, for me, the combinations and sound of all that stuff is far more interesting to my ear, than some folks here wondering about such things as ... it is 19/8 or 69/13? It's ridiculous and it takes away the possibility that musicians can have some freedom with all music.

I even remember Miles ... and it would be hard to say (and likely incorrect) that he was "with" the band when he came and went on his own, very different, and at various different ranges, and all the band could do is maintain a bottom line for him to fall back on. But in between? Only Robert Fripp does anything that close.

It just bothers me, that we talk about this stuff as if it were kindergarten stuff, and I don't like DD showing his preference for drums, unless he is making fun of all the classical music he knows that did not have any, and then not realize how limiting the majority of drummers are to the music in their band. Some stand out well, and color special moments in such a way and they might return to the same "beat" again, but generally, it's not about the beat ... it's about the music itself, and where it goes.

I find that DD misses the mark in making the music better, instead of bringing it down to the level of pop music. Triumvirat, like a lot of bands (specially the ones that showed up on HARVEST at the time), were not about the drums ... or the keyboards. To me they were about the wholesome piece of music they were able to put together.

I, honestly, do not find DD that great, otherwise he would have given a listen to much more serious rock music out there ... and he doesn't have the guts to tackle Banco, for example, or PFM, both of which he would probably bring down to a comparison, and not be able to showcase their musicianship and ability for a very long time.
 
  I guess I found that DD was sometimes "in sync" with Triumvirat, and sometimes not, and I kind of feel that way about his analysis of Illusions On A Double Dimple; sometimes I liked his comments and felt a kinship with them-when he was obviously jiving with the overall meaning, but in other cases, he seemed kind of lost, like when he could not understand the upbeat music relating to the rather melancholic lyrics. He did not understand that Triumvirat can fuse some really upbeat and engaging, refreshing and invigorating music even as lyrically things are about someone losing their job, wanting to "drink til they can't stand on their feet" and at times "feel like dying". Triumvirat pull it off because, and  I'm sure they were fully aware of this, their music making cannot betray a geniune joy of creation and playing-they obviously were a band that really enjoyed the creative process they were in. There was, to use a somewhat cliched term if I may, "magic in the air". (and Helmut Koellen, who was German, did not know English at the time, and had to learn the lyrics phonetically, pulls off a really incredible job at things)  And, of course, there were many other artists on Harvest, and other labels, that also really enjoyed creating.
      I hope he does talk about Banco or PFM. And I must say I hope he tackles some more Triumvirat, like maybe side two of Illusions, and Spartacus.


Edited by presdoug - August 26 2022 at 01:06
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Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
He did not understand that Triumvirat can fuse some really upbeat and engaging, refreshing and invigorating music even as lyrically things are about someone losing their job, wanting to "drink til they can't stand on their feet" and at times "feel like dying". Triumvirat pull it off because, and  I'm sure they were fully aware of this, their music making cannot betray a geniune joy of creation and playing-they obviously were a band that really enjoyed the creative process they were in. 
...

Hi,

I think there is a literary context to this that goes back nearly 20 or 30 years before Triumvirat and it was well known in Europe and it was only in America that these things were ignored.

It's difficult to realize what it is all about, for example the opening of "Our Lady of Flowers" and not appreciate the poetic way it is described. In America the pseudo-Christians would condemn this in the first paragraph if it came anywhere to the school's library.

The juxtaposition of up and down, and its many variations is something that is a part of European Literature in the 20th century, and even Albert Camus was considered "contrary" (weird for the sake of it) which got Jean Paul Sartre to turn a few things backwards and make all of it ... sound OK all of a sudden, but a lot of its meaning became what would be considered "pedestrian".

IF, there is something not very good about DD, is that his lack of knowledge and understanding of the artistic landscape in Europe, in the 20th Century is VASTLY DIFFERENT from the American "no art allowed", specially as exposed by the Republican party since Ronald Reagan (arts are too liberal ... cut their budget!) ... and how we do not entertain, or visit the odd things ... and you can see it in LA and NY ... yet another revival of the same thing! And guess what DD is doing?

I don't dislike him, but in my thoughts, he is a sort of middle class hero ... just doing pedestrian music, and when he hears a Magma, or Triumvirat or something that is not pop musik related, he really does not know what to say about it ... except invent things that aren't there!


Edited by moshkito - August 26 2022 at 08:18
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
He did not understand that Triumvirat can fuse some really upbeat and engaging, refreshing and invigorating music even as lyrically things are about someone losing their job, wanting to "drink til they can't stand on their feet" and at times "feel like dying". Triumvirat pull it off because, and  I'm sure they were fully aware of this, their music making cannot betray a geniune joy of creation and playing-they obviously were a band that really enjoyed the creative process they were in. 
...

Hi,

I think there is a literary context to this that goes back nearly 20 or 30 years before Triumvirat and it was well known in Europe and it was only in America that these things were ignored.

It's difficult to realize what it is all about, for example the opening of "Our Lady of Flowers" and not appreciate the poetic way it is described. In America the pseudo-Christians would condemn this in the first paragraph if it came anywhere to the school's library.

The juxtaposition of up and down, and its many variations is something that is a part of European Literature in the 20th century, and even Albert Camus was considered "contrary" (weird for the sake of it) which got Jean Paul Sartre to turn a few things backwards and make all of it ... sound OK all of a sudden, but a lot of its meaning became what would be considered "pedestrian".

IF, there is something not very good about DD, is that his lack of knowledge and understanding of the artistic landscape in Europe, in the 20th Century is VASTLY DIFFERENT from the American "no art allowed", specially as exposed by the Republican party since Ronald Reagan (arts are too liberal ... cut their budget!) ... and how we do not entertain, or visit the odd things ... and you can see it in LA and NY ... yet another revival of the same thing! And guess what DD is doing?

I don't dislike him, but in my thoughts, he is a sort of middle class hero ... just doing pedestrian music, and when he hears a Magma, or Triumvirat or something that is not pop musik related, he really does not know what to say about it ... except invent things that aren't there!
When you mentioned Ronald Reagan, I just had to share a memory of a concert I saw of Steppenwolf at Barrymore's in Ottawa in the spring of 1983; when the first encore came, John Kay said to all of us, "This one's for Ronnie" and they played the title track to their album "Monster". How fitting. And to think that the song, written way back in 1969, IS STILL RELEVANT all these decades later. I forget who said "The one thing we can learn from history is that we don't learn from history"
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Hi,

It was nice ... so actually see him doing something else, other than the same old same old same old stuff that sounds the same.

I'm not sure that I ever really thought of Triumvirate as a "copy" of anyone else, given that the instruments available at the time were all the same ... and I wonder how much we think it is a "copy" simply because the same instrument is used. I don't think we do that to the violin, over 400 years of its life, for example, so why do we do this for everything that we know of rock music in the past 50 years?

I always thought that the musicianship was the important part, not the sound itself! And to me, this is what separates the best from the rest!

Musicianship is not everything imo. Personally I love the sound of a pipe organ. You can put pipe organ on anything almost and it sounds better. Bit like putting cheese on food I suppose.

I also think that a lot of the Norwegian prog bands such as Wobbler, Elephant 9 and Motorpsycho have a lovely grainy sound. At the end of the day its sound that enters our ears. However a bit of musicianship doesn't do any harm. 

Triumvirat were obviously influenced by ELP and Fritz was a huge Emerson fan as were many keyboard players. He also did copy Emerson's rig to some extent and also decided to use the Yamaha GX-1. That wasn't a given as very few prog keyboard players used that. It was mainly Emerson and John Paul Jones. There were plenty of other options out there.
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Triumvirat were obviously influenced by ELP and Fritz was a huge Emerson fan as were many keyboard players. He also did copy Emerson's rig to some extent and also decided to use the Yamaha GX-1. That wasn't a given as very few prog keyboard players used that. It was mainly Emerson and John Paul Jones. There were plenty of other options out there.

I've always thought of T'rat as "the German ELP." So have many others. It never seemed like a bad thing.
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Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Triumvirat were obviously influenced by ELP and Fritz was a huge Emerson fan as were many keyboard players. He also did copy Emerson's rig to some extent and also decided to use the Yamaha GX-1. That wasn't a given as very few prog keyboard players used that. It was mainly Emerson and John Paul Jones. There were plenty of other options out there.

I've always thought of T'rat as "the German ELP." So have many others. It never seemed like a bad thing.

IOADD was an excellent ELP type album but not a copy. That's the only thing they did that I care about but then it well up there as one of the keyboard lead albums of the 70's. ELP were imperious though in that period 1970-1974 so it's dangerous to try and be anything like them I suspect. That said I'm always on the look out for great keyboard prog albums of course Smile 
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Originally posted by verslibre verslibre wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Triumvirat were obviously influenced by ELP and Fritz was a huge Emerson fan as were many keyboard players. He also did copy Emerson's rig to some extent and also decided to use the Yamaha GX-1. That wasn't a given as very few prog keyboard players used that. It was mainly Emerson and John Paul Jones. There were plenty of other options out there.

I've always thought of T'rat as "the German ELP." So have many others. It never seemed like a bad thing.

IOADD was an excellent ELP type album but not a copy. That's the only thing they did that I care about but then it well up there as one of the keyboard lead albums of the 70's. ELP were imperious though in that period 1970-1974 so it's dangerous to try and be anything like them I suspect. That said I'm always on the look out for great keyboard prog albums of course Smile 
  ^^Thanks, both of you,  for your input. I guess I'm not totally divorced from the ELP association (though it usually seems like I amLOL) but having said that, I still feel that there is a uniqueness about Triumvirat and their sound that for me, overrides any influence. This is something that I find hard to express in words, but it is like they had an overall "vibe" or "feel" to their music that I find missing in other groups. (an even more descriptive word might be "atmosphere")  I touched on that in the mini documentary I did on the band, where I even go as far as to saying it is "the thing I love about them the most". I have come across other fans of Triumvirat who feel they sort of "went their own way" musically.

Edited by presdoug - August 28 2022 at 05:54
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Musicianship is not everything imo. Personally I love the sound of a pipe organ. You can put pipe organ on anything almost and it sounds better. Bit like putting cheese on food I suppose.
Yes excatly (the rest of what you wrote as well). I think most everything tastes a little better with (a little extra) black pepper - and that music tends to get more enjoyable with the added sound of certain instruments (like flute, moog, tamboura, harp, harpsicord, sitar... oh and mellotron:)
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Originally posted by presdoug presdoug wrote:

...
overrides any influence. This is something that I find hard to express in words, but it is like they had an overall "vibe" or "feel" to their music that I find missing in other groups. (an even more descriptive word might be "atmosphere")  I touched on that in the mini documentary I did on the band, where I even go as far as to saying it is "the thing I love about them the most". 
...

Hi,

I don't really know what to say about this ... I have always been about "the feel" and having been in a house of literature, you knew quickly, that not everything was a copy ... though we have that problem here, and I can only suggest that there is not enough attention to detail, or the appreciation for someone else's description of things ... it ends up being just another Lawrence Durrell ... though this time, the "view points" are hidden, since the folks making one word comments, do not specify their reason ... something that for me makes the comment and the suggestion completely invalid and worthless. In my thoughts these folks never heard more than 5 minutes worth of the music, to even consider the comment, and thus the sound of the "hammond organ" (or whatever synth) will always be a f**king copy!

And, again, that's not fair to the artist and the work!
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