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Reasons for continously highest rated Prog albums?
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13530 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2022 at 04:21
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

other than nobody does it, you being told several times not to do it, that it's inappropriate, no problem...

I have not seen it.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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mathman0806 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

...So I don't quite understand QWR...Does anyone know the formula for calculating QWR?


For more than you might want to know about QWR, see this old post of mine..,


Thanks! At least I understand the math now. Can't say I understand why they do this. I understand having something like it in place to prevent recency bias and to have lesser known albums that appeal to just a few. Though I don't think there would be a fair way to formulate this.

Interesting that from the time of the linked post in 2020, the minimum QWR for the 100 has gone up from 4.1887 to 4.2103.

Edited by mathman0806 - September 21 2022 at 03:08
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13530 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2022 at 06:17
Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Cristi Cristi wrote:

can you please stop mentioning constantly your other threads all over the place. I'm not even the only person to tell you that... 

Nothing to do with Catcher's  posts. 

Please tell me, what do you find to be the problem?


other than nobody does it, you being told several times not to do it, that it's inappropriate, no problem...

I'll think about it, but the threads I've started have become a part of my sources and evidence for my points of view - there's a lot of good stuff there. Tongue
Edit:
Something else, I can't see it as a possible disadvantage to others threads. On the contrary, it may be a help to increase the level of activity on the PA forum, and besides that, ther're posts of many people in those threads, I've just started them.


Edited by David_D - September 20 2022 at 12:07
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

I think the Beatles albums should be #1 thru #100......but that's just me LOL Clap

Hi,

If anyone takes the "progressive music" study seriously, instead of a definition that belongs to teenagers with bubble gum and their first cigarette, then, I think it is HIGHLY FAIR GAME to include various Beatles albums ... the last one for sure, as much as Sgt. Peppers.

However, the "definition" is not about "music" and its strong content and value ... it's about a lot of crap that is not necessary and overdone solos by various instruments. At least, one could say, that the Beatles did not abuse that area at all, likely because GM and others may not have liked it and wanted to make sure they did not sound like the "street" bands out there, doing cheap loud solos to get attention!

The main issue, here, is that these folks posting here, were not "THERE" to have a good understanding of how strong the quality of that material was ... and they think it was just a bunch of sing songs for the pop folks ... and the irony? In the stuff listed today, more than half of it fits as "pop music" a lot more than they ever will as "progressive".

One last thing ... David D ... please stop posting to yourself, and then to make it look like you are into the "music" side of it. If you were, you would pay attention to the HISTORY of it all a lot more than you do! Instead of a ridiculous and senseless definition written up by folks that could "code" instead of folks that knew and understood music. And it ended up being the story of the internet and fans ... their ideas were better than the reality! Or the history, for that matter ... it's like it was all an illusion!


Edited by moshkito - September 20 2022 at 07:12
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Lewian View Drop Down
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Originally posted by wiz_d_kidd wiz_d_kidd wrote:

Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

...So I don't quite understand QWR...Does anyone know the formula for calculating QWR?


For more than you might want to know about QWR, see this old post of mine..,

This is a quite interesting way to weight "many votes" against "good ratings". I have a bit of experience with such formulae, but hadn't come across this idea yet. It is kind of weird that everything starts from the overall average and then has to work its way up (or down), but the formula seems to by and large do what is intended.

This seems to imply that an album's QWR doesn't only change when it has new ratings, but also when the overall averages N and R change. For example, if many unrated new albums are added to the database, this will decrease N and make it consequently easier for albums with not so many ratings to reach the top 100, as it increases the weight of the ratings they already have. On the other hand N is increased when new ratings come in for albums that are already rated. Chances are though that the database is big enough that these two effects will move at very low speed, and probably mostly balance each other out.
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ What bands with their first release twenty years ago can compete with the progasours?

Progasaur (n) - A family of Ornithopods that roamed the musical Mesozoic eating Conifers and other vegetarian delicacies while creating intricate and sometimes lovely sounds. These creatures are known to be very dangerous and prone to occasional fits of carnivory.

Progasaurus cerebellus - type species of the family typically having 3-5 heads and bearing a large number of musical appendages.

Mellotronodon hammondi - Keyboard-bearing reptile with more arms, fingers, and capes than centipedes have legs. Commonly seen in the wild with very large arrays of acoustic and electronic keyboards.

Bassoraptor rickenbackerus - Dinosaur typically playing 4-stringed instrument but known to thump the jungle with 5 or more strings. Some Bassoraptors have been sighted with large sticks.

Stratocasterus londonensis - This species of Progasaur thrives on thin, wound strings and was first sighted in the London area. While originally most abundant there, populations became common in Italy and the US. From there, the species radiated around the world, with special variants evolving in Scandinavia.

Beatobanger smackithardicus - This taxon has numerous arms like Mellotronodon, but can be distinguished by a small number of fingers that hold various types of sticks. It's important to keep a safe distance during prog safaris because they'll hit anything, often at odd times, and carry on ad nauseam about what is the most important species in the band.

Sirenosaurus angelicabanshee - This Progasaur lures it's prey with exceptional voices, and some have been known to growl when the Stratocasterus uses powered humbuckers. Some roam the landscape wearing costume, others dance about, and others also wield instruments. But relatively few dive into the prehistoric mosh pit. 


Edited by RockHound - September 20 2022 at 08:25
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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^ Love it!
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13530 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2022 at 08:55
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ Love it!

I can understand that! Thumbs Up



Edited by David_D - September 20 2022 at 08:57
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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richardh View Drop Down
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In general there are just not enough ratings, even 3000 is a drop in the ocean and only about a dozen albums have more than about 3000 of the top of my head and then its mostly Pink Floyd! 

Someone might think, you haven't seen my Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA with albums rated as much as with 30.000-40.000 ratings, and today the mostly rated albums on RYM have 60.000-80.000 ratings.

Come on, Richardh, you can do better than that! Wink


I just don't care about RYM and never check it out or reference it so my comment was purely about PA. If you want a discussion about RYM then I'm out.
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richardh View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


One idea is just to remove the algorithm altogether and just allow the situation to be constantly fluid. We don't really need to see that the top PA album is always Close To The Edge do we. It may more fun just to see it go up and down like in choppy waters while the latest releases take centre stage. 

I think that the overall top PA ranking is certainly of interest to many, however it could be fun and promote some other artists if on the home page on the right instead of "top prog albums" there'd be some more or less randomly filtered ranking like "top psychedelic/space albums from the 2000s", changed on a daily basis. (Of course this will never happen. Wink Still I'd like it.)

Indeed or PA could just run a current list based on 2022 releases or a rolling last 12 months. It's almost as if we want to shut the door on the idea of prog evolving. It would only need a tweek to the front page to change this I expect. 
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Cristi View Drop Down
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:


Indeed or PA could just run a current list based on 2022 releases or a rolling last 12 months. It's almost as if we want to shut the door on the idea of prog evolving. It would only need a tweek to the front page to change this I expect. 

something like that?
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

I just don't care about RYM and never check it out or reference it so my comment was purely about PA. If you want a discussion about RYM then I'm out.

Actually, my OP is mostly aimed at "classics" in general, but it surely have some advantages to discuss some more particular top lists.



Edited by David_D - September 20 2022 at 09:39
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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How about this list?

http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=&scountries=&sminratings=3&smaxratings=20&sminavgratings=4&smaxresults=100&x=93&y=9#list
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Or this one:

Albums with between 1 and 1000 ratings only.
Reviewer for The Progressive Aspect
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Points: 14110 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2022 at 11:43
Chances are richardh knows that these can be done, as do I... the discussion was about putting something like this on the homepage instead of the all time "top albums" on the right side.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13530 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2022 at 12:24
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

How about this list?

http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?ssubgenres=&salbumtypes=1&syears=&scountries=&sminratings=3&smaxratings=20&sminavgratings=4&smaxresults=100&x=93&y=9#list

With so small number of ratings (3-20), it's very subjective and accidental which albums are to find there.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by nick_h_nz nick_h_nz wrote:

Or this one:

Albums with between 1 and 1000 ratings only.

This one is surely more inter-subjective and worth considerations regarding the reasons for their high rating.
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13530 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2022 at 13:50

Anyway, with this particular topic I'd like to look at those albums which remain very much appreciated over really
many years and throughout changing times, as I find it very interesting. Smile
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13530 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2022 at 16:39
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

By the way, people tend to agree more on the classics. Sure, top quality music is to be found between 1980 and today, but there are far more branches than roots. Many of us were brought to prog by the top 6 and other dinosaurs; when it comes to later prog, people's tastes spread out more, so albums have a harder time to reach the top, which I think is quite right even without thinking that the quality of the old masters was never reached. It is just far more controversial by whom. Also the longer an album is around, the more it can stand the test of time (or not).

Any idea about what this test of time implies? 


Edited by David_D - September 20 2022 at 16:39
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Lewian View Drop Down
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The test of time basically means that I still like an album many years later, it still sounds fresh and not dated. Which is obviously very subjective. I'm reluctant to call anything a masterpiece that is only around for a year or a few years. Knowing about lasting influence of an album also requires it to be around for some more time. 
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