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Reasons for continously highest rated Prog albums?
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David_D View Drop Down
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    Posted: September 17 2022 at 07:51

Some Prog albums become the highest rated and can be that for really many years, even the genre/meta-genre meanwhile 
goes through many changes and evolvements. I'm curious and find it interesting to think about the reasons for it, so I would 
like to hear if you have any ideas about it.

  I don't know if this topic may somehow be controversial, but if so, please, take it easy.

I hope, you'll find it interesting! Smile



Edited by David_D - September 23 2022 at 02:58
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Points: 7954 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 08:46
I think there is a bias toward the pioneers--and for those who did it all with their instruments, without the advantages of computers and modern sound processing machines. However, there are a number of albums from outside the "glory years" that have established places in PA's Top 250 (~23 in the Top 100; ~95 in the Top 250). 

Personally, I tend to give more credit to modern musicians than many: despite the advantages given them in the process of creating and publishing music, I still find a lot of astonishing ideas being "virtuosically" and "professionally" explored today--in the past 35 years--which is why my All-Time Top 250 Prog Albums looks nothing like PAs. 

At the same time, I do extoll the "classic era" "masters" for their blood, sweat, and tears, their courage and passion. The fact that so many of today's artists are trying to emulate or use the sound palettes of the "masters" and the "classic era" albums also seems to give credence to the value of those 1960 and 1970s albums we tend to hold up high. They helped create our new neural networks from which we can tolerate and allow other new musics to enter and imbed.
  



Edited by BrufordFreak - September 17 2022 at 08:47
Drew Fisher
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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It's a numbers game. More votes get more ratings. Modern bands can't compete to bands with 3K ratings.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

It's a numbers game. More votes get more ratings. Modern bands can't compete to bands with 3K ratings.

And yet, some do.





Edited by David_D - September 17 2022 at 11:01
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Grumpyprogfan View Drop Down
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^ What bands with their first release twenty years ago can compete with the progasours?
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ What bands with their first release twenty years ago can compete with the progasours?

LOL

I give you an answer a bit later.
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David_D View Drop Down
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Points: 13528 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 12:21
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ What bands with their first release twenty years ago can compete with the progasours?

If we say more or less the last 20 years, it can be seen on my Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA , 
and we can at least add Black Midi to the bands on this list. 
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David_D View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ What bands with their first release twenty years ago can compete with the progasours?

Then, I have a question for you. Is the word "the progasours" your own invention? 
I find it very funny, and it wouldn't suprise me if it made history. Big smile 
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^ Yeah, I made it up, but should it be spelled progasaurs?
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Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^ Yeah, I made it up, but should it be spelled progasaurs?

I think, "sours" is fine as "not-sweet"/"not-fresh", and got sour due to the high age, so it's still similar to "dinosaurs". 




Edited by David_D - September 17 2022 at 14:03
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David_D View Drop Down
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A question for consideration can be whether these highest rated albums have a particular ability to resonate with
a very large number of people over a long period of time, and if so, how can it be?







Edited by David_D - September 18 2022 at 03:38
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Points: 6393 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Progosopher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2022 at 16:42
All bands and artists have influences, but the influences of the pioneers (progosaurs is a great word no matter how it is spelled) are difficult for many to see because they are not limited to rock. Later bands are influenced by these in turn, so they seem less innovative even if they are just as innovative.
The world of sound is certainly capable of infinite variety and, were our sense developed, of infinite extensions. -- George Santayana, "The Sense of Beauty"
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Points: 26107 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2022 at 02:24
In general there are just not enough ratings, even 3000 is a drop in the ocean and only about a dozen albums have more than about 3000 of the top of my head and then its mostly Pink Floyd! 
One idea is just to remove the algorithm altogether and just allow the situation to be constantly fluid. We don't really need to see that the top PA album is always Close To The Edge do we. It may more fun just to see it go up and down like in choppy waters while the latest releases take centre stage. 
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In general there are just not enough ratings, even 3000 is a drop in the ocean and only about a dozen albums have more than about 3000 of the top of my head and then its mostly Pink Floyd! 

Someone might think, you haven't seen my Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA with albums rated as much as with 30.000-40.000 ratings, and today the mostly rated albums on RYM have 60.000-80.000 ratings.

Come on, Richardh, you can do better than that! Wink
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In general there are just not enough ratings, even 3000 is a drop in the ocean and only about a dozen albums have more than about 3000 of the top of my head and then its mostly Pink Floyd! 

Someone might think, you haven't seen my Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA with albums rated as much as with 30.000-40.000 ratings, and today the mostly rated albums on RYM have 60.000-80.000 ratings.

Come on, Richardh, you can do better than that! Wink


can you please stop mentioning constantly your other threads all over the place. I'm not even the only person to tell you that... 
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Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

In general there are just not enough ratings, even 3000 is a drop in the ocean and only about a dozen albums have more than about 3000 of the top of my head and then its mostly Pink Floyd! 
One idea is just to remove the algorithm altogether and just allow the situation to be constantly fluid. We don't really need to see that the top PA album is always Close To The Edge do we. It may more fun just to see it go up and down like in choppy waters while the latest releases take centre stage. 

I've just had a look at RYM's top Progressive Rock albums and what surprised me was seeing black midi - Hellfire at number 12, one ahead of Foxtrot no less. I love the album too, but strange that it's so high.



Edited by Gentle and Giant - September 18 2022 at 05:38
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Originally posted by Progosopher Progosopher wrote:

All bands and artists have influences, but the influences of the pioneers (progosaurs is a great word no matter how it is spelled) are difficult for many to see because they are not limited to rock. Later bands are influenced by these in turn, so they seem less innovative even if they are just as innovative.

So would you say that the matter of innovation is important in rating, and as later bands seem less innovative, they're lower rated?
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Points: 13528 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2022 at 07:08

Philchem8 doesn't seem to participate in the forum for the time being, but he has previously stated an opinion in relation to the topic here, and I think it's okay to quote it:

Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

While I don't think there's anything wrong with rating or reviewing albums simply based on one's "subjective" enjoyment (it's a free world...or at least it should be), I do believe it is possible to assess music based on a set of criteria that are meaningful within a particular social, cultural and historical context. Assessment on the basis of such criteria cannot be absolutely objective, as how well these criteria are met is in the end a subjective judgment. However, it is possible to use knowledge (to the extent one is knowledgeable about the music in question) and critical thought to arrive at an assessment of these criteria with some degree of objectivity, again, within a particular context. So rather than talk about an "objective" assessment, maybe we should talk about a contextual, informed, critical opinion. In my view, such a critical opinion allows us to say that Mozart did make better music than Britney Spears, that Casablanca is a better movie than Benji, or that Crime and Punishment is a better novel than the latest Harlequin romance. However, given the limitations and fallibility of human judgment, one should accept that there is always a certain degree of uncertainty in any informed and critical opinion we hold, which should hopefully make us more tolerant of other people's opinions. 
(Written in the thread Objectivity in rating albums , 18 March 2022, p.8)

Now, I don't know to what degree Phil will think of the averages of ratings as an expression of a "contextual, informed, critical opinion", but on the basis of the quoted here, I think, it's quite possible that he will find at least one of the main reasons for the highest rated albums in their particularly good, artistic quality.

And now, please, try to keep to the topic, and not just discuss the question of objectivity again. Also, tell better what you think than what you don't think. Smile


Edited by David_D - September 18 2022 at 07:39
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for me---#1 and #2 are exactly right ---the rest like everyone--I can switch around.Smile
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Points: 13528 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2022 at 08:02

Actually, Philchem8 has at other occasion stated a very direct opinion about the reasons for albums on my "Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA":

Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Philchem8 Philchem8 wrote:

Firstly, with respect to the list itself, I do think it provides a credible ranking of the best prog albums,

By the way, in which way "the best", Phil? Ermm

Hhmm...Reading this again, I think I expressed better what I mean in a subsequent sentence in my post: "I think the list is quite close to what I perceive are considered the best prog-albums". It would be impossible for me (and I think anyone) to say they are the best, as there are so many other less known prog-rock albums I have not listened to that may be just as good or better than those on that list, and there's a highly subjective element in making that determination anyway. So to be clear, I am not saying that they are the best, or even among the best, but they are among the most critically acclaimed or appreciated (as you suggest), and arguably among the most influential prog-rock albums, based on the definition that you have used (I will come back to that point below) - so in that sense, one could say that they are "considered" among the best. But I am speaking generally here and emphasize this is based on my perception (which could be wrong) as someone who is not an expert, and taking into account not only the compound RYM and Prog Archive rating you calculated, but also looking at how critics have rated many of these albums (at least the ones I am aware of) and other lists of "best prog-rock" albums (such as by Prog Magazine's, which was compiled based on votes by many subscribers, and the Rolling Stones's top 50 prog-rock albums for example). 

Written in the thread Top 100 all-time as rated on RYM and PA , 03 March 2022, p.5.
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