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Whatís the meaning of prog

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amarthu View Drop Down
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    Posted: January 21 2023 at 10:31
It may seem a silly question. Iím absolutely a fan of prog music, but yesterday a comment saying Ďcomplex for the sake of complexí which someone used to describe an album led me to think the meaning of prog music. My initial reason for listening to this kind of music is probably the state of tiredness of pop music, which has a quite fixed pattern. I like new sounds. But is complexity really needed to express a particular thing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote earlyprog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2023 at 10:46
It's like asking what's the meaning of Life.

Survival in a mean world, I presume.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2023 at 13:31

artistically very ambitious music
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2023 at 14:26
I think itís a medical term that refers to a complete recovery from anal warts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 21 2023 at 14:44
42, or more sincerely as one possible answer, rock without limits -- rock which can be free of established conventions.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 05:29
Originally posted by earlyprog earlyprog wrote:

It's like asking what's the meaning of Life.

Survival in a mean world, I presume.

That doesn't sound very positively to me.


Edited by David_D - January 22 2023 at 05:31
quality over quantity, and PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 05:36

Btw, very interesting topic. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 05:45
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

42, or more sincerely as one possible answer, rock without limits -- rock which can be free of established conventions.

Welcome to the forums.

I like this having of Rock as starting point.
quality over quantity, and PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amarthu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 05:48
No, it doesnít. Btw if one struggled to survive, I donít think that he or she would pursue accomplishment or complexity in music.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amarthu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 06:02
ĎComplexity for complexityís sakeí is used by someone to comment on the music of avant-garde metal band Unexpect. Hopefully, those of you who are interested can listen to their music and share your opinions here. I myself like the feeling I get when listening to their songs. But I admit itís not an easy experience and they indeed seem to purposely merge as many genres as possible and to be complex, with so many sounds that can be overwhelming. Some artists may not try to be complex and instead try to break the boundaries and find a best way to show a particular feeling or idea, during which process they get higher accomplishment. Well, I guess thatís the case. Eager to hear your ideas.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerinski Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 06:24
Fortunately it's not the most common approach to making prog music, but it can indeed happen that some band or artist falls into the trap of understanding prog simply as "complex music" and tries to be more complex than anything else out there, making music which may sound as "complexity for the sake of complexity".
I have not listened to Unexpect so I can't comment on this particular case.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 06:57
Originally posted by amarthu amarthu wrote:

It may seem a silly question. Iím absolutely a fan of prog music, but yesterday a comment saying Ďcomplex for the sake of complexí which someone used to describe an album led me to think the meaning of prog music. My initial reason for listening to this kind of music is probably the state of tiredness of pop music, which has a quite fixed pattern. I like new sounds. But is complexity really needed to express a particular thing?

Hi,

Welcome btw.

I think that you are overdoing its thoughts and meanings.

When it all started, it was not about this or that, or complexity ... it was, for the most part about the experience, and adding some things that a player had tried and liked and could do ... it was NOT the showcase that is today ... "LOOK ... I'm progressive ... LOOK ... I'm prog!" kind of thing. It's hard to say, for example, that Miles did his thing because he was progressive, or that John McLaughlin did his thing because he was progressive ... they did what felt right to them, and in many cases they simply showcased their individuality ... and fudge the definition and anything else ... it was about their individuality to take you away and fly with their music!

It's really simple.

At the time, most of it in the late 60's and early 70's was about breaking radio's dominance and controls of a lot of music, and specially in America the FM radio was not yet "controlled" and was mostly independent all the way to the end of the 70's when the great American Rape took place by the commercial everything and all stations were bought to take off the hands of individuals.

The great thing of the early days FM was the fact that it allowed DJ's to play their own thing, and the tastes were wild and far out, and the mixes were ... great ... specially compared to today's progressive crap shows that can not do something that is away from the format radio of the AM dial.

To be honest, there is no "meaning" and this was the harsh truth that allowed geeks to create a definition that is the least musical of any definition of music in the past 1000 years. It's ridiculous and no one that did that even said ... wait, you telling me that Mozart's stuff had no solos? And because they were different and not quite the same theme as the bottom line of the piece, that it was not progressive?

It's best, for me, to not EVER consider the DEFINITION the important part ... YOU either LISTEN to music or you don't and some might be considered this or that, and what not ... but if your "tastes" are defined by one genre or another, ONLY, I recommend you quit listening now ... your genre will be dead soon, and you will wonder why the music died! Not to mention that your ears got tired of it!

So, get into the MUSIC ... and forget the DEFINITION. You will appreciate this many years from now when you have heard and seen a lot more than just 3 bands.


Edited by moshkito - January 22 2023 at 07:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote amarthu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 07:06
Thank you so much! Thatís very insightful!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 07:25
I think two things made progressive rock what it is:
 
1: The rise of technology such as the synthesiser.
2: The musicians were educated but liked the energy of rock music.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 09:04
Originally posted by amarthu amarthu wrote:

ĎComplexity for complexityís sakeí is used by someone to comment on the music of avant-garde metal band Unexpect. Hopefully, those of you who are interested can listen to their music and share your opinions here. I myself like the feeling I get when listening to their songs. But I admit itís not an easy experience and they indeed seem to purposely merge as many genres as possible and to be complex, with so many sounds that can be overwhelming. Some artists may not try to be complex and instead try to break the boundaries and find a best way to show a particular feeling or idea, during which process they get higher accomplishment. Well, I guess thatís the case. Eager to hear your ideas.

A matter of taste, and it's good with variety.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote dr wu23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 09:31
Sums it up in under 3 min.

er...wait a minute..that's the meaning of life..never mind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2023 at 10:11
Originally posted by I prophesy disaster I prophesy disaster wrote:

I think two things made progressive rock what it is:
 
1: The rise of technology such as the synthesiser.
2: The musicians were educated but liked the energy of rock music.
 
]

Hi,

I would say that the synthesizer helped, however, that might just be what I consider an "excuse" because in the late 60's there was a lot of music that is regarded as "progressive" that did not exactly employ a synthesizer in the way that we think ... King Crimson would be a great example.

That the musicians were educated, is something that is different everywhere. You can say that EASILY about Canterbury, for example, where so many of those folks ended up being instructors. I don't think that the American version of the early progressive, considered "psychedelic many times, is that educated, unless you separate The Doors from it ... they were at UCLA and a very high level of music, film and art studies, unlike most rock bands, that end up together because they want to play rock'n'roll. For example, even though they became very well versed in music, the SF scene had its roots in the street, not in schools. And NY is even worse, since a band that sold 10K albums in a city of 14+million people, would all of a sudden be the star, and pushed by a record company. In Chicago the band of the same name, makes it hard to not think that some of its members were no musically educated. The things they did in the first 4 or 5 albums, in many cases would be considered advanced music, and yet it was on a band that everyone considered pop music because of one song and hit.

Germany, was influenced by the music schools, specially in Berlin where a lot of the electronic music came from, and a lot of composers were around. Both Can, TD, and others have discussed this a lot. Can folks were highly educated musically, but AD2's folks were not quite so, and made their way via the commune thing and deciding to do something better than just a drum circle which was what AD1 was really about. However, Renate has said that they were thinking classical music and its flow for their early days, although after "Vive La Trance" I think it all became just a song, hoping to sell ... and the early days and improvisations were gone (Apocalyptic Bore lyrics).

France was probably following (sort of) the Jacques Brel thing and the Brecht/Weill school of things, if one looks at ANGE and how it ended up bringing a bunch of bands alive. However, its "laissez-faire" in the arts and music all of a sudden became something via Heldon, and even though Richard Pinhas discussed his thoughts and politics in EUROCK, in the end we ended up thinking it was just an individual thing. 

Italy was more classically influenced, and it showed in PFM with it doing bits and pieces of material here and there, but they also were good story tellers in the early days, something they forgot about later. Banco is highly "classical" in terms of composition itself, so it's very easy to say that at least a few members of the band were highly educated.

England, is difficult. I consider Rick Wakeman a school drop out, so to speak, since he can only copy the old styles and things, and when he created something new for TFTO which was demanded based on the design, lyrics and work, he promptly decided that it was crap, and his curry was better. Keith Emerson, I would say was probably the best educated of all the keyboard players, and seeing his work being done solo on piano (Rachel Flowers) immediately tells you how incredible of a composer he was ... and seeing the scores, via Daily Doug ... dude ... 9 out of 10 bands would not be able to EVER look at those scores ... maybe follow for 5 minutes, but playing them? Not likely!

It's interesting, but the definition, and meaning of progressive and prog, do not line up with music history and its evolution since so much of the comments ignore history altogether.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2023 at 04:18
Given that there you are not immortal and you don't have an infinite amount of time to listen to music everyone needs guidance and to move towards a certain direction.

In my opinion it should be called Post Psychedelic Rock Music because that's how it evolved. You listen to the bands that followed the dream circa 1970-1975 (ELP, Yes and the like) . Personally I was always very suspicious of the whole jazz rock fusion scene that seemed to take the place of 'prog rock'. I've never liked that stuff but that's just my taste.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2023 at 04:40
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

Given that there you are not immortal and you don't have an infinite amount of time to listen to music everyone needs guidance and to move towards a certain direction.

In my opinion it should be called Post Psychedelic Rock Music because that's how it evolved. You listen to the bands that followed the dream circa 1970-1975 (ELP, Yes and the like) . Personally I was always very suspicious of the whole jazz rock fusion scene that seemed to take the place of 'prog rock'. I've never liked that stuff but that's just my taste.
If you don't like Jazz-Rock, then maybe you haven't yet given an audience to the sound of Audience. Thumbs Up

Friends, prog fans and countrymen, lend me your ears for an audience with AUDIENCE, one of the finest Jazz-Rock bands ever to emerge from this green and pleasant land of England. AUDIENCE are a band who deserve to be heard by a wider audience. Tell all of your friends about them and tell your FRIEND'S FRIEND'S FRIEND too. If you've ever wanted to admire the view from THE HOUSE ON THE HILL, then look no further than the rousing and uplifting music of AUDIENCE. This early 1970's band are still ALIVE & KICKIN' & SCREAMIN' & SHOUTIN' well into the 21st century with their marvellous UNCHAINED melodies. AUDIENCE are a much-under-appreciated band who deserve to be legends in their lifetime, unlike some of today's modern bands, who only deserve to be legends in their own LUNCH-time. Their four rare studio albums are worthy of being passed down through the generations to your children, and to your children's children's children too, and if you don't already have a son or daughter, then now might be as good a time as any to take your wife upstairs and make one. Wink
 
AUDIENCE ALBUMS
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 23 2023 at 08:15
Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
In my opinion it should be called Post Psychedelic Rock Music because that's how it evolved. You listen to the bands that followed the dream circa 1970-1975 (ELP, Yes and the like) . 
...
Hi,

Absolutely. And it was very visible in Europe, and America, if we look at France, Italy, Germany, Holland and so on. England, was a bit different and I think their media "forced" changes, by trashing things that they did not understand, forcing bands to make simpler stuff and be "more direct" in their lyrics, so they would know what it is about. To me, this is a bad issue, since all of a sudden, the music itself is not as free as it was before, and then for my tastes it became "forced" and not as intuitive as before. The sad thing, is how REFUGEE was not able to continue because Patrick left for YES, in what was a bad situation and he was let go very soon after, without having a chance to help or improve. That left PM ending up in The Moody Blues later, and not being as good either since he could not add to the musicianship of the group as much as they should have allowed to help develop the band further ... by that time it was about the "songs", and not the music.

Metal, however, had already set its foot in England and a few other places. One can almost include Alvin Lee at Woodstock as a great example of something that helped Steve Howe develop, and do.

Originally posted by richardh richardh wrote:

...
Personally I was always very suspicious of the whole jazz rock fusion scene that seemed to take the place of 'prog rock'. I've never liked that stuff but that's just my taste.

Hi,

There are some exceptions. RETURN TO FOREVER  and then, folks like JOHN MCLAUGHLIN stand out ... and you can see a lot of John in the work that Steve Howe does ... where his "riff" ends up becoming a major part of the whole piece in some cases.

But, it's even more difficult to not see how Miles Davis was an influence ... the "I do what I want" thing, was never questioned when Steve Howe went to the left and all over! And the same thing for many other rock guitarists that over did the "solo" by going from here to the Moon and back, and I can't help mentioning Dream Theater in this situation and how "metal", picked things up so much, even though the sound and structure is different ... the guitar still did its own thing, and everyone just had to stay with it, which is not too different than what Miles did, and showed everyone ... IT CAN BE DONE. We just never thought that "individualism" was important and valuable, and all of a sudden, it is!

Miles, and a lot of the jazz fusion folks are not my favorites either, but when you see the Miles special (not sure where I saw it, btw), you find out really quick, that even Miles has no idea what he is going to do, but he is courageous enough to try whatever comes to him, and something always does, which is more of a factor about his own musical ability, than it is mere chance or luck! 

The only jazz fusion I do not quite follow is the one that is ... just that ... fusion for the sake of fusion, and I have always felt that some personality was missing in many of these bands ... but that could be just my view and opinion. The best example is the number of bands wanting to be added to PA, and their work, is not really that original, or to my ears ... interesting!


Edited by moshkito - January 23 2023 at 08:19
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