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Simon & Garfunkel for Prog Folk?

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BrufordFreak View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 17 2023 at 08:50
As many of you may have noticed, I've been on quite a "Classic Era" Prog Folk kick lately. (it's been WONDERFUL!)

As I've been listening to many albums that are totally new to me, I find myself marveling at how often Simon & Garfunkel come to mind. Now I can't help but feel/wonder that S & G might have had some profound effect on the Folk and Prog Folk musics appearing and developing across The Pond (in both the British Isles and Europa). 

So, has there ever been a discussion as to whether Simon and Garfunkel deserve a place in the PA database--in proto-prog (follk) if not in the mainframe of the sub-genre?

I grew up with S & G playing almost daily around me as my mother and her brother were huge fans.

Now as I listen to their five albums I do hear many elements that would qualify them as proggy: organs, drums, fuzzy electric guitars ("A Simple Desultory Philippic," "Somewhere They Can't Find Me"), Psychedelic Folk Rock arrangements ("A Simple Desultory Philippic," "Blessed," "Somewhere They Can't Find Me," "Richard Cory," "A Most Peculiar Man," "A Hazy Shade of Winter," "The Boxer") incorporation of strings and orchestral instruments and arrangements ("Dangling Conversation"--before The Beatles) (and Mellotron in "The Boxer") as well as harpsichord, celestina, and other anachronistic instruments, aggressive vocals ("I Am a Rock," "Mrs. Robinson," "A Hazy Shade of Winter"), bombastic drums ("Homeward Bound," "The Boxer"), effects, multiple motifs in songs, great electric bass lines, incorporation of theatric and television voice samples ("7 O'clock News/Silent Night"), very poetic and often politically-motivated lyrics (some quite acerbic like "A Simple Desultory Philippic," "7 O'clock News/Silent Night"), coverage of old/ancient/anarchronistic songs ("de Lessus' "Benedictus"), aggressive vocal and instrumental performances reminiscent of Comus and Martin Cockerham, as well as incredible guitar and vocal musicianship (including groundbreaking vocal and instrumental arrangements of "Scarborough Fair/Canticle")--often of the most angelic kind. Plus, the fact that the band definitely "progressed" over the course of their seven years on the map: from covers of traditional American folk songs (a trend that was soon paralleled in Britain, Ireland, France, and Germany) .

The existence of many songs that have been covered by progressive pop and rock bands is another reason to consider them for inclusion. "America," "Sound of Silence," "A Hazy Shade of Winter," "The Boxer," et al.

Anyway, just opening a discussion. I imagine that this will resonate more with American readers, but when I look at the dates of S & G's output (1964-1970) and compare the sounds and patterns of sourcing/inspiration, I find them ahead of, if not comparable to, British bands of the same era. What think you, People of the ProgArchives?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AFlowerKingCrimson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 09:22
Did you post this in the suggest new artist section also?

Anyway, I enjoy S&G but I'm not familiar enough with their music to know if they are considered prog folk or not. My opinion based on what I know would be to say no they aren't. 


Edited by AFlowerKingCrimson - May 17 2023 at 09:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 09:34
In Save The Life Of My Child" (Bookends 1968) the basic idea of Harold The Barril can be heard (somebody is about to jump off a ledge, and we hear many voices: the mother, the cops, the casual bystander) predating Genesis own song.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote octopus-4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 09:44
There are some songs that could have something prog in some way, but I don't think they should be on the site. Neither Prog-related.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 10:02
Originally posted by AFlowerKingCrimson AFlowerKingCrimson wrote:

Did you post this in the suggest new artist section also?


No, I did not. I figured I'd put it up for general discussion in order to get a feel as to whether or not it would be a crazy idea to submit them for Prog Folk consideration.

Drew Fisher
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 10:03
Originally posted by octopus-4 octopus-4 wrote:

There are some songs that could have something prog in some way, but I don't think they should be on the site. Neither Prog-related.

I have this same feeling, but I wanted to hear what other people thought. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 10:04
Originally posted by Heart of the Matter Heart of the Matter wrote:

In Save The Life Of My Child" (Bookends 1968) the basic idea of Harold The Barril can be heard (somebody is about to jump off a ledge, and we hear many voices: the mother, the cops, the casual bystander) predating Genesis own song.

Cool! 
I suspect that there are many lines and ideas which had direct effect on the creative process of Prog Folk artists all around the world.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mellotronwave Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 11:00
Exquisite songwriters and singers indeed but not prog imo
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lazland Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 11:03
I think Drew missed off the most obvious track they recorded which could possibly be described as falling within progressive rock, or art rock as it was, and that is The Only Living Boy in New York. Still gives me goosebumps every time I hear it.

However, the answer to the main question is no, they do not belong here by any stretch of the imagination. Simon & Garfunkel started off, as Tom & Jerry, as a rock n' roll outfit hugely influenced by The Everley Brothers. When they reunited as S&G, they were regarded as being in the vanguard of the folk/Americana movement of the 60's, mentioned in the same breath as the likes of Dylan. Those political songs? Well, most of them, if you study Simon's lyrics, were deeply political - the generational songs of a protest movement which literally changed American politics and society.

They influenced a whole generation of poets, musicians, politicians - the list goes on and on. That list includes artists who are listed on Prog Archives. But, proto-prog? 

Nope - about as prog as Marilyn Monroe's bottom. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 11:06
No, they do not belong here in a Prog Folk, or in Prog Related, nor do they belong in the Progressive Music Lounge. Moving this to the General Music Discussions forum. At this site, that’s where S&G most belong..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bardberic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 12:44
not even remotely sorry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 13:05
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

No, they do not belong here in a Prog Folk, or in Prog Related, nor do they belong in the Progressive Music Lounge. Moving this to the General Music Discussions forum. At this site, that’s where S&G most belong..

I guess this reassignment of a discussion thread is about as definitive of a response to my initial query. At the same time, I think it sad that a group of Progressive Rock-oriented people is being denied the rather salacious opportunity of discussing the various prog elements and influences of this very interesting artist. As a "prog" discussion it has the advantages of being easily seen and responded to by the majority; as a "general" item, it will probably only reach a minority of eyes. BUT, I am already encouraged by the responses (except for the "not even remotely") to an important band--one of America's equivalents to England's The Jam.

So be it! The High Council has spoken! RESPECT! (Life goes on.)


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jacob Schoolcraft Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 13:13
Obviously BOOKENDS would be my choice because it's eclectic. The song "Save The Life Of My Child" features Paul Beaver on the Moog Synthesizer. He's only playing a few notes and most people might not be impressed by that aspect..however historically this was a magical period in time when Beaver And Krause were introducing the Moog Synthesizer to Pop artists and Rock bands such as The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, The Doors etc. ..so it's super interesting to me that an innovator like Paul Beaver appears on this record.

I will admit ...Bookends is a strange album. The tape recordings of elderly people in a nursing home is a precursor to David Greenberger and Birdsongs Of The Mesozoic capturing that moment for an entire album as a concept. When I first heard this on Bookends I found it a bit Avant-garde and overly depressing as it is followed by "Old Friends " which expresses a really deep depression.

Another odd aspect to this album is the usage of Mellotron. It's a little reminiscent to how The Moody Blues used the Mellotron and it kind of throws you off. Additionally certain songs are odd regarding the style of writing and lyrically the subject matter. Simon And Garfunkel had never released an album like Bookends before and they never did again. Sometimes I've listened to it between a Nick Drake album and a Procol Harum album..I'll give it 4 stars for that and it's certainly a depressing album.

I get the impression that Jon Anderson may have been inspired by the songs from this particular album. He did state in the past that Simon And Garfunkel were influential to him. So it's probably safe to say that certain Prog musicians in the Art Rock bands of the 60s and 70s borrowed their elements, ideas, etc. That doesn't mean they tried to sound like them. Bookends does not belong in Progressive Rock. It's definitely a collection of odd songs and it does contain Prog type keyboard sound such as the Mellotron, but some of the writing derives from Folk Rock of the 60s more than Prog.

You could easily say that several Folk and Pop artists released off beat albums in the 60s and 70s that you can't quite identify what it derives from. Laura Nyro wrote some of the strangest chord progressions on the planet. Songs with unusual time signatures that were musically dark, melodic and jazzy. She influenced Todd Rundgren big time, but she was not a Progressive Rock artist.

Edited by Jacob Schoolcraft - May 17 2023 at 13:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 13:14
^ I didn't make those rules, but I have been enforcing them for many years. We certainly can discuss any Prog merits in the General Music Discussion. To me it's something of a related to Prog-Folk Related duo.

Here are the forum guidelines: https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13082

Quote Pog Music lounge
This section is for general discussions about Progressive music. Unless and until an artist is included in Prog Archives, they are not considered to be "prog". In other words, discussions in "Prog Music Lounge" should only be about groups/music currently included in Prog Archives, or about progressive music in general. If you wish to suggest a band for inclusion in the site, see "Suggest new Bands" below. For discussions on all other types of music see the "General music discussions" section below.
N.B. In terms of the incorrect posting of threads, this is the most widely abused section of the forum. Please make sure you only create threads in this section which directly relate to Prog music.


I think I might do a sticky topic in the Prog Music lounge as so many people do neglect the Site Rules and Guidelines Section of the forum, and think to keep some order to the forums they are worthwhile.   A lot of people have posted in the Prog forums just to get more exposure even when they know that the topic is not best-suited there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 14:55
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

No, they do not belong here in a Prog Folk, or in Prog Related, nor do they belong in the Progressive Music Lounge. Moving this to the General Music Discussions forum. At this site, that’s where S&G most belong..


They were discussed/considered for a (very) short while by the PF team at one point - if memory serves, when discussing the Magna Carta case - and turned down.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 15:03
^ OH interesting, thanks. I wouldn't have expected S&G to even get that far, unlike, say, contemporaries like Donovan or contemporaries and fellow countrymen like Crosby, Stills, and Nash. I'm not suggesting those, or opening up more cans of worms, just thinking of some other big names from around the same time that are out that have more merit to me (most of the 60s to 70 folk that I think of with a Prog Folk relation tends to have a psychedelic quality to me). And I think of Nick Drake as more Prog Folk related than S&G. Actually, I can see some relation with Bookends particularly, but no.

Edited by Logan - May 17 2023 at 15:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Catcher10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 15:21
Nah......
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote verslibre Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 16:00
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

Nah......

Ditto.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 16:38
They could be proto-prog (years 1963-1971).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gordy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2023 at 17:07
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

No, they do not belong here in a Prog Folk, or in Prog Related[...]
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