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Albums and Artists that are Mistagged

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wiz_d_kidd View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote wiz_d_kidd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 09:41
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Sanguine Hum should be Canterbury.

The Psychedelic Ensemble should be Symphonic.


I agree with TPE. It should move from Neo-prog to Symphonic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Criswell Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 09:42
I've often thought the line between Neo Prog and Symphonic Prog to be a bit blurred...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 11:56
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


^ so all the artists that only released one album wouldn't qualify?

You be trippin'. Bye bye one shot artists that never got around to a second coming.

Easier just to reevalute an artist if another style becomes the dominate one me thinks

Hi,

That was not the idea ... if one artist does not release any more work, then after a time he/she should be added ... the idea was to prevent the inundation by wanna bees that do not belong and are being mistagged right from the start.

I have no issues with the so many bands we are discovering from the 70's that only had one album at all ... their work has survived quite well and they deserve to be listed. But, today, with the ease that things can be created, and no studio, I think I would put the brake on the idea some ... 

I was also thinking that the "definitions" for inclusion and of the specific areas and terms, be cleaned up so there is less discussion or doubt as to the selection ... when something is being thrown around because it could belong to various areas, it makes it look like it will always end up in the wrong place.


Edited by moshkito - August 15 2023 at 11:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 12:15
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

I'm not hearing much Canterbury in Sanguine Hum.
And I don't hear much Canterbury in Antique Seeking Nuns. The same songwriters in each band, and their style of music did not change from nun to hum. So how can one be labeled Canterbury and the other neo? They should both have the same label.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 12:26
See I hear the whimsy in Antique Seeking Nuns.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 12:37
^So whimsy is the defining factor for labeling a band Canterbury or neo? Anything else?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hercules Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 13:06
Does any of it matter?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nogbad_The_Bad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 13:54
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

^So whimsy is the defining factor for labeling a band Canterbury or neo? Anything else?


A factor, not THE factor. It's right there in the genre definition.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 14:20
Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Does any of it matter?


Well if we moved Pink Floyd to tech extreme metal, Genesis to RIO and Henry Cow to crossover I think wed find out in a hurry from users all around the world if it matters

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 16:29
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Originally posted by Hercules Hercules wrote:

Does any of it matter?


Well if we moved Pink Floyd to tech extreme metal, Genesis to RIO and Henry Cow to crossover I think wed find out in a hurry from users all around the world if it matters


I would say that it kind of does matter for archival purposes. As for Henry Cow, sure the group was the founder of RIO, but I could see music it made, especially Desperate Straights with Slapp Happy tagged as Crossover here if we focused on albums using our categories (and especially if we had multi tag options just using our category names, which would be silly). Definitely has art pop/ progressive pop qualities, as does In Praise of Learning.

But yes, such changes would get a huge reaction. It might not lead to war... Oh wait, it already is leading to War!



Anyway, such things are often fun to discuss even if it is not really that significant. And I have requested that more than one band be moved from one Prog category to another which were approved for a move by the relevant teams. It definitely does happen.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2023 at 17:23
Originally posted by Nogbad_The_Bad Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:

Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:


As far as FANTOMAS, come on Ian! It's METAL! Avant is very much an experimental genre but we have an entire experimental metal section which is for avant-metal bands. In fact Fantomas is a mix of avant-metal, experimental rock, dark ambient, alternative metal and sludge metal. That's METAL !..! Even has drummer dude from Slayer :D


I'd be fine with Fantomas in Experimental Metal, they are a few Avant Metal bands that seem to be in the Avant genre rather than the Experimental Metal genre. It's not a big deal to me, I think they sit fine in either. Avant tends to be one of the dumping grounds for bands that don't fit elsewhere, similar to Eclectic.



WHYYYYYYYY? Why in the world would any primarily metal band be in avant / RIO when we have THREE metal categories on this site? Confused

Illogical

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 13:55
Originally posted by siLLy puPPy siLLy puPPy wrote:

Likewise it would be helpful if prog metal would be broken down into its metal genre constituents
Progressive Death Metal
Progressive Black Metal
Progressive Metalcore
Progressive Alternative Metal
Progressive Experimental Metal
Progressive Doom Metal
Progressive Symphonic Metal etc

Disregarding the practical aspect of this, I think of Prog Metal more like a separate genre different from all these mentioned even there's maybe quite a lot of overlap.

                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote David_D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 14:20

^ But okay, I suppose now you were also talking about "Tech/Extreme Prog Metal". 








Edited by David_D - August 16 2023 at 14:29
                      quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 15:31
^I guess if it's whimsy tech/extreme metal it could be labeled Canterbury.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BrufordFreak Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 16:31
Originally posted by progaardvark progaardvark wrote:

There is a Band Move Policy on the forums here:

Perhaps the genre teams could use this thread to consider possible re-evaluations in the near future? I think all of us on the teams are primarily invested in new band suggestions and have time constraints. Nonetheless, this might be a worthwhile pursuit. Bands evolve, as does our insights into what is or is not prog.

Ideally a better database where multiple subgenres could be applied to bands would be wise, but alas, PA's owner is, for all intents and purposes, absent from the helm. Until that changes, we are stuck with what we have.

I think the BIG PROBLEM is that so many bands change and evolve. Look a ULVER or MOTORPSYCHO or ZAPPA. Or Santana's brief foray into J-R Fusion or Johnny Mac and Jan Akkerman's forays into classical et al. or Gleb Kolyadin's New Age and classical albums.

J Tull had some Prog Folky albums but I've always thought them first as a blues-rock band.


My point is: (as has been discussed many times before) that bands are stuck with one assignation when, in fact, they may have several versions of themselves presented to the world on an album-by-album basis.



Edited by BrufordFreak - August 16 2023 at 16:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 20:48
Can end up going down all sorts of rabbit holes with this I suspect.

ELP, Yes and Genesis are all tagged 'Symphonic' yet they are all different. ELP could easily be in eclectic and Genesis in Neo. I realise that may seem very strange but Genesis evolved the song format rather than being a pure symphonic classical based band imo and that it was what Neo is to me. Yes at their best were much more classical than Genesis (the Wakeman/Howe axis made that happen) and so would still be Symphonic as they stand and ELP were all over the place so could be in eclectic.
I would keep Tull in folk prog for want of anything better (don't understand 'eclectic' for them at all) and keep Floyd in Psychedelic but would put King Crimson in Experimental/Post Metal personally. Some of this is a bit 'after the fact' but isn't that what we are talking about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:37
^ i kinda agree with you. Genesis really was different than the virtuoso wizardry of true symphonic prog bands. I would call them the first neo-prog band as well. Tull is prog folk. Bare bones albums like Songs From The Wood reveal their true underpinnings.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:38
Quote Magic Pie should be progressive metal
Are you kidding me? Magic Pie is not even close to being soft metal. It's 100% symphonic/neo or maybe eclectic prog. It's anything BUT metal. I would personally stick to the Symphonic label, as it is classified right now, because of the band's retro sound.


Edited by Hrychu - August 16 2023 at 21:44
AI-generated prog album covers are utter shіt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:48
Originally posted by Hrychu Hrychu wrote:

Quote Magic Pie should be progressive metal
Are you kidding me? Magic Pie is not even close to being soft metal. It's 100% symphonic/neo or maybe eclectic prog. It's anything BUT metal. I would personally stick to the Symphonic label, as it is classified right now, because of the band's retro sound.


No not kidding but now that you mention it eclectic actually would be better.

All 5 Magic Pie albums have tons of progressive metal in them but the music shifts from various symphonic and neo-prog moods to crazy avant-prog moments before bursting into extremely confident progressive metal.

Have you really listened to the albums? I just listened to all of them several times in recent weeks and the METAL is absolutely ferocious. They are on metal sites and even RYM has progressive metal for all five albums as one of the tags.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2023 at 21:50
Yes and IMO It's not metal. Kim Stenberg's guitar playing is shreddy but it doesn't really make the music heavy enough to consider it metal.


Edited by Hrychu - August 16 2023 at 21:51
AI-generated prog album covers are utter shіt
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