Prog created with the help of AI |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17294 |
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Posted: August 21 2024 at 10:41 |
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Hi, I do not think this is AI ... mostly because it would be literally impossible to teach the content of the AI computerized code to include all the emotions and details that you added ... and then put them together which would be an idea YOU CREATED that was not a part of the AI, which would likely put it together differently. If we're "talking" AI, then we should not be inferring that it will do this or that ... we don't know what was coded into it, and how it will respond according to its own internal rules and decisions. The mind, and your design and creativity, could be said to be a form of AI, however, it would not be considered so because it is not mechanical ... or as changing and re-considering a lot of things like you normally would to make it smoother ... as you find it while putting it together ... not to mention that tomorrow it will be slightly different and adjusted.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17294 |
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Hi, Shhhhhsssshhhhh ... the lawyers would be fighting for more AI so the record company appears to have better music than you know! And, as usual, we would spend our money on it, because some goon shows it listed as a top number of an album! I think a record company is more likely to abuse this than a single person out there ... who, also, would have a hard time getting people to hear it and see it! We see this on new things posted here on PA already ...
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Saperlipopette!
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 20 2010 Location: Tomorrowland Status: Offline Points: 11390 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17294 |
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Hi, I was thunkin' that you need to go buy a thrill ... AI would have some big issues with Steely Dan, up to and including what it was in the original story and book! Now that was some serious AI ... ... and mechanical, too ... and it didn't talk back!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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wiz_d_kidd
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 13 2018 Location: EllicottCityMD Status: Offline Points: 1419 |
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Music created by AI sounds like Steely Dan... and vice versa.
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“I don’t like country music, but I don’t mean to denigrate those who do. And for those who like country music, denigrate means to ‘put down.'” – Bob Newhart
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KorgC3
Forum Newbie Joined: June 24 2024 Location: Netherworld Status: Offline Points: 5 |
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I was following the development of AI for quite a while (even had an associated job some years ago), and I really don't get the AI frenzy as well as the fearmongering that extended from it. When I installed stable diffusion (and I did so on day one), all I could see is a pattern recognition software with a bare-bones user control, and a lack in internal consistency. The main problem for me however, is when I see art made by stable diffusion, I see not the person who curated the art, but stable diffusion.It's not so much because of the mistakes it makes, but the peculiarity of its rendering. There is a certain recognizable pattern to its texture, and it's never ever had fooled me. Same goes with music software like Suno. A buddy of mine tried to trick me with it, but because I've already engaged with that platform, and I immediately recognized it for what it is. There is a certain compression, the way the notes overlay upon one another, the occasional clipping, the tuning, and many other small things. I guess that there is a lot of mediocre art, which makes AI works look good in comparison, but does it makes it outstanding? Everyone just so decided to pretend that they don't see the obvious difference between a real flower and a plastic reproduction. I especially loathe those "influences" who have art related jobs, but choose to double down on that frenzy, as if they so suddenly lost all of their experience and human intuition. And if some corporations are eager to replace human resource with an AI one, so what? Corporations were already forcing artists to produce art under extreme limitations, ultimately leading to homogenized aesthetics. AI can imitate certain patterns but its struggles to create truly spontaneous aesthetics. For example Beksiński made a very sudden shift in his direction during the 90s. Since AI is heavily reliant on a foundational database its struggles with fast changes. Think of it like that: How long it would take for an AI to result in an Anime-like aesthetic if one is forced to rely only on realistic painting and photographies? AI can create nominally "new" aesthetics, which lack the seed of novelty. And as for programmers, I really don't see an AI replacement of human resource happening anytime soon. Normal people seems to assume that anyone who has/had software/programming related job is a "programmer", which is not true. There are some people who get into the industry to do automation related tasks, something that can be potentially done slightly faster with a pre-set pattern recognizing AI. Incompetent programmers exist as-well, and their bloated and dysfunctional code wouldn't be much more optimized if they resorted to a help of an AI. And mind you, I'm not an enemy of AI. I think it has a its use cases, such as automation of tasks. I personally used vocal separation AI, as the results weren't significantly worse from ones made by slower methods. I also think that "mechanical" AI-vocalist can be an accessible replacement for VOCALOIDs. Edited by KorgC3 - July 09 2024 at 23:01 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17294 |
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Hi, Given how folks listen to music, and in a place like this, where the "song" rules, I think it will become impossible to tell a lot about AI. Already I feel like a lot of the stuff listed in the releases of (whenever) that some of the stuff is exactly the same as most of the other ... all of it has the same instruments, only a different sound, and its format is, generally, the same as most commercial music. In a commercial situation like this, it would be very difficult to find some AI ... I tend to joke that AI is already i nuse by most "prog rock" bands ... since there is too much of the same thing. It was the same thing with the growl thing for a while ... it had become so mechanical as to really make you think about it.
I think it already is a problem and it "removes" that creativity in a different sort ... and it is something I tend to comment on a LOT. The perfect example is the "classic rock" stuff ... after hearing so much the same thing over and over and over again, your ability to find new music details and specially new musics becomes a problem ... you listen to a new band and the first thing that your ear hears is not "recognizable" and is "different" from what you are used to ... and your ability to find new music and materials are a problem. This was very visible in the many years I have been next to Space Pirate Radio ... started out with some folks not liking it, and slowly it became known and understood, and above all ... it provided a COMPLETE ALTERNATIVE to a lot of "radio" that was already commercial and not with it. For all intents and purposes, I consider the "tastes", IN GENERAL, centered on the commercial sound, special for "prog rock" ... and what I find is a denial of the origin of the whole thing that became known as "progressive", and later "prog". In the midst of that there are some folks that have some amazing tastes for music, and their listings and postings are a treat ... you're not likely to find AI in there ... but you will in stiff that is similar and basically the "same" in format, sound and instrumentation. Prog, btw, is not the only one with the issue ... classical music would likely be more attractive to AI than a lot of rock music, but if the individuality was way out in left field, I seriously doubt that AI would even try to add a note or two. Jazz would make AI seem like someone that didn't know music, or perhaps didn't like it!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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I prophesy disaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 31 2017 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4739 |
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But what difference does this make to the listener of the music? If AI music is audibly inferior to human music, then is this judgement any different to a preference of say Van der Graaf Generator music to Genesis music? It seems to me that AI is being perceived as a threat just like autotune was. But AI isn't a threat because it removes the human element of creativity. It's a threat because it is a substantial way that the rich and powerful can oppress the general population. And the threat is greater when we can't tell the difference than when we can. |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17294 |
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Hi, Agreed. There are some precedents, although I think they were human touched up to sound better. Way back when in California there was an experiment done and the music was created by a certain name no one had heard before. Many folks liked it ... until one day they were told it was a machine that created the music, and all of a sudden the music is trash and no one knows about it anymore! The main thing with AI, I think (and I admit I don't know crap about it), is that it can only do what it has been "taught" or has been added to their "brain" ... and doing small adjustments, like humans can and do, is not likely to happen, and I think this would make the music a bit dry, and not easy to understand, or get into it. Humans, in most music, have a tendency to smooth out moments, so they make better sense, in terms of continuity. I'm not sure this would happen with AI and that it would work correctly ... and well ... but we don't know ... maybe 50 years from now it will be different ... but are we ready to let go of the human difference in the music? Already synthesizers replace an orchestra and that could be considered a form of AI ... but we are fine with it. I think the lines will get blurred. I'll tell you what scares me more for the future ... people's ability to learn an instrument and become one with it, and maybe go somewhere with it ... this would make AI a lot more interesting and certainly "better" than most folks learning their instrument in the first 5 or 10 years, I'm guessing.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Logan
Forum & Site Admin Group Site Admin Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Status: Offline Points: 35143 |
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I loathe the prevalence of AI. Death to AI. Long live the new flesh.
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Two tracks per many of my fave acts: A Youtube Playlist
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 12987 |
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Not a fan. And there is no ambiguity about it. AI composed and rendered music removes the human element of creativity, and I want no part of it. AI music needs to have a disclaimer on it like cigarette cancer warnings.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
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I prophesy disaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 31 2017 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4739 |
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All of the examples above describe tools that enhance music beyond the musician's natural ability to create it. Yet it's machine learning that you regard as dishonest rather than just another tool that enhances music beyond the musician's natural ability to create it.
You manage to avoid self-contradiction by having a definition of "inferior" that goes beyond the music itself. You literally need to know that the music you're listening to wasn't created by AI in order to enjoy it... the music itself isn't enough... you need full disclosure. |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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I prophesy disaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 31 2017 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4739 |
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If the issue is authenticity, then why draw the line at composition? Why not performance as well, or genuine instruments, or an unaltered voice? Drawing the line at composition seems somewhat arbitrary.
Because the music created by AI infringes copyright, or because copyright music is being used to train the AI? If the latter, then I've heard the creators of the AI argue that schools use copyright music under the fair use doctrine to teach their students. Also, if an AI listens to a piece of music, is that really much different to a human listening to the piece of music? And arguing from incredulity that artificial intelligence is not the same as human intelligence is not a valid argument. |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member VIP Member Joined: December 23 2009 Location: Emerald City Status: Offline Points: 17805 |
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This is all you need to understand what the difference is...... I too from my perspective am done with this thread, I've said my peace.....I'll let the music label lawyers fight it out now since there may be a good argument for copyright infringement using AI....
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5090 |
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This topic is turning into a ragebait. This is my last response to it. ;) Cheers.
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5090 |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15153 |
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^ agreed. Even folkies claimed dishonesty when folk artists used electric instruments. A.I. is just another advancement in computer technology. It can only do what it's programmed to do. Computers have always been a form of A.l. and it has been argued that the first example of A.I. was the Henry Ford's assembly line production of early automobiles. Unlikely any machine will replace human creativity any time soon. (function(){function c(){var b=a.contentDocument||a.contentWindow.document;if(b){var d=b.createElement('script');d.innerHTML="window.__CF$cv$params={r:'89f07133bcaf2516',t:'MTcyMDI3Nzc5My4wMDAwMDA='};var a=document.createElement('script');a.nonce='';a.src='/cdn-cgi/challenge-platform/scripts/jsd/main.js';document.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(a);";b.getElementsByTagName('head')[0].appendChild(d)}}if(document.body){var a=document.createElement('iframe');a.height=1;a.width=1;a.style.position='absolute';a.style.top=0;a.style.left=0;a.style.border='none';a.style.visibility='hidden';document.body.appendChild(a);if('loading'!==document.readyState)c();else if(window.addEventListener)document.addEventListener('DOMContentLoaded',c);else{var e=document.onreadystatechange||function(){};document.onreadystatechange=function(b){e(b);'loading'!==document.readyState&&(document.onreadystatechange=e,c())}}}})();< style=": ; top: 0px; left: 0px; border: medium none; visibility: ;" width="1" height="1">
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https://rateyourmusic.com/~siLLy_puPPy |
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I prophesy disaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 31 2017 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4739 |
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Oh really?!! If I compose a piece of music on a computer and have it played to a synthesiser via MIDI, is that being dishonest because I didn't manually play it? Is it being dishonest because they're not real instruments? If I create a piece of music by multitracking several different performances together, is that being dishonest because I didn't manually play it in real time? If I apply an effect to modify my singing voice, is that being dishonest because it's not my real voice? If I use the roll of the dice to assist in what notes or chords to use in a composition, is that being dishonest because the choices made were not entirely mine? If I edit a composition created by AI to conform to my tastes, is that still being dishonest because I didn't do all of the work even though it contains many decisions that are mine? You are arguing from a position that is self-contradictory. On the one hand, you are arguing that AI music is grossly inferior, but on the other hand, you are arguing that the consumer is being deceived by it. What if AI music eventually becomes as good as that from the best human artists? Edited by I prophesy disaster - July 06 2024 at 05:39 |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Hrychu
Forum Senior Member Joined: November 03 2013 Location: poland? Status: Offline Points: 5090 |
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Have you ever seen a guitar that plays itself and comes up with its own chords? Claiming authorship for a soulless turd made and more importantly conceived entirely by a machine, with no real intention regarding the majority of creative decisions in the "music" is simply being dishonest with the consumer. 👎 Edited by Hrychu - July 06 2024 at 02:27 |
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“On the day of my creation, I fell in love with education. And overcoming all frustration, a teacher I became.”
— Ernest Vong |
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I prophesy disaster
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 31 2017 Location: Australia Status: Offline Points: 4739 |
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As counterintuitive as it may seem, this lends credence to the notion that AI are to be regarded as person-like entities with the right to such things as copyright ownership. Otherwise, if AI is regarded as a mere tool, then why should the use of such a tool be disclosed when the use of other music creation tools are not required to be disclosed? Perhaps a solution to the AI "problem" is the requirement that all AI output be placed into the public domain. This would create a disincentive for AI to be used purely for money-making purposes and would create an environment in which AI benefits humanity as a whole. |
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No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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