Prog created with the help of AI |
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Valdez
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Posted: October 27 2024 at 10:11 |
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Agreed.
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https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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Davesax1965
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 23 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 2839 |
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My two cents: AI music isn't music.
Does it need further discussion ? |
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Valdez
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 17 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 732 |
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Not Prog exactly, but, the first, (and last) thing I will ever do with A.I. I added some voice layers over it.
Supposed to be doom laden and scary. Maybe good for Halloween. I just HAD to try it out. Starts at o:22 and is a continuation of another song.
Edited by Valdez - October 26 2024 at 12:01 |
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https://bakullama1.bandcamp.com/album/sleepers-2024
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17547 |
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Hi, Did not mean to make it sound bad, but it was a way of saying that "composing" had been simplified with the notes and what not right in front of you ... in olden days, without a full score you had to imagine it a lot more, but now with the DAW the imagining takes a lot less time, and ... my thoughts are that a lot of the feeling that goes into the creation of things mind/intuition style, might get lost, or accidentally bypassed because you or I saw this, and changed it to something else ... as you suggest, might make better sense harmonically, however, we would not know that for real until it was played ... because a player with abilities and then some, might downplay it and make it fit ... AI, is not capable of doing this, unless you put it in manually.
I have been saying that for a long time ... and use Stravinsky as an example, probably way too much, which annoys some folks, since they know that "Le Sacre du Printemps" would showcase a lot of prog rock as not good enough ... compositionally, specially, since too much of it is based on a riff and not the compositional value.
Absolutely ... I don't mind the commercial thing, except when it tries to throw down your throat and mind with a crowbar ... at that point Classic Radio in America is the worst! But, sadly, a lot of the progressive music shows on the internet, follow the same formula ... they have to make sure they play enough known material so they don't lose "their audience" which was a fear mechanism that didn't exist ... it was like saying that people were not smart enough to choose and know better ... it was a really cheap shot about what so many of the rock folks really thought of the fans ... which of course, has turned around ... and the fans are "in control" ... which I don't think will last long enough ... soon more than one artist is going to put their foot down ... and many of them will follow.
I think there is a market for it, for a while ... writing the kind of introductory things that they show in their commercials is fine with me ... sometimes you need a nice and detailed something that your mind can not come up with ... however, we know from the history of advertising, that stuff like that ends up falling apart quickly and get dropped ... the surprise factor always wins, as does the creative factor, which ADOBE will not be able to showcase ... I think they mean well, and they are taking advantage of it to make a lot of folks feel better, but don't try a Dear John letter with Adobe ... that would be the cake a definitely a split! Communication via AI ... I can see the sci-fi film next year! And thanks for reading and replying ... many folks here are not good readers in my book, although I would be accused now and then of not "getting it" ... but being a writer of lots of poetry, short stories and stuff on music ... I would know have some really things to say about AI ... though I'm not sure that many folks here really seem to be onto it ... a lot of what is considered "prog-rock" for me, is almost the same as AI ... format, solos, lyrics, styles ... all the same ... it just sounds different ... unplug it and you have copies of a lot of things out there! I have a feeling that a lot of folks don't like my saying that as it might bring down their tastes some ... I can't help it ... I came from at least 1000 years of music history ... and a lot of this stuff is too simple to consider better than they are, which is why I tend to joke that they are so AI ... it's not funny .,.... it's like the musicians in the canteen in the famous movie!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17547 |
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Hi, And let's not forget that 100 years ago we would not have been able to say that at all, since the ability to hear a lot of music, let alone different things, was similar to the very joke and idea about a man going to the moon around the 1900's. No one would have even conceived something like that at that particular time, but these days, when we can hear anything from around the world, there is going to be a lot of folks thinking that their music has been stolen, or similar ... and in all honesty I have an issue with that ... since how you saw it and felt it, was not the same thing as another composer ... and sooner or later this will have to be addressed in the copyrights definitions ... in the end, the whole idea is messed up ... and that example I have mentioned before is the actor that was playing King Lear doing 200/300 performances and not once did he say that very same line that repeats itself the same way ... likewise the same set of notes can be played with a very different way and feeling that does not bring up necessarily the idea that it was stolen ... but this is an area that a lot of folks have gone after several times, although I'm not sure that all of them succeeded very well. AI, in some ways, has a slight advantage if you take a strong computer that has billions of songs and musical anything in it, and it can find all the examples of the same section of notes through hundreds of years, then remove those and create something similar but not the same, even if all it takes is the switching of one note or chord around ... a sort of PDQ Bach ... turn it upside down. So, in this sense, AI will end up being more original from the way we look at it ... but when we define it in terms of EXPRESSION, now we have something very different, but are we now saying that the person that does Bob Dylan is not just inspired by him, but copying him? Now we have a different problem ... and immediately we will state that expression is not music ... the notes and chords are ... Heck, so much of what we are considering Prog these days is so AI like to my ears, it's not funny, which is the reason why I state UNPLUG IT so we can see the meat and the bones ... I imagine half the bands will die right there! ... and DT will fall off even faster! ???
Edited by moshkito - October 26 2024 at 01:14 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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KorgC3
Forum Newbie Joined: June 24 2024 Location: Netherworld Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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Well with the advent of digital production tools, Midi, Modules, DAW's and etc, people started striving for perfection. Certain improvisatory aspect has been lost, but to give some cred to bedroom composers, they still apply human-style decision making, whereas AI looks on patterns more schematically. Lets say that there is a song that finishes with a section that's in harmonic minor. A human composer would restructure it to be referential to the previous sections of the song, to form a cathartic climax. AI on the other hand, just views it as a harmonic minor section. It might recognize some correlation between it and the early part of the song, but it never be as cathartic. More often than not, it will lean towards context-less and schematic composition. Once again, much of it has to do with the fact that at this point AI can only self-reference but not to self-reflect.
I think that the "Fusion" argument is important, since music for the last 100 years was developed with combination of unorthodox individual elements together (different scales, specific instruments, vocal techniques and etc). Prog and J-Fusion are more extreme examples of this, but the truth of the matter is that the foundation for such genres was already structured in the first half of the 20th century. There is a topic dedicated to Disco-Prog on the forum now. AI would struggle to make a "Disco-Prog" like melody even if there is data about both "Prog" and "Disco" in its database. It requires an exact reference, whereas humans are more free with their thoughts. Because of that, even a somewhat musically illiterate person can imagine and whistle something that's quite novel and odd.
I do find it saddening that individual humans resort to defeatism because they seek external worth instead of personal value when honing their skills. Art can obviously be commercial, and arguably mostly was during antique times, but none of these people would do art, if they didn't enjoy doing it in the first place. I can see why someone might struggle to trust others, but nowadays so many are no longer trusting themselves.
AI corporatism is another problem. Since the public AI market is relativity new, I'm not surprised that the ethical standards are quite low, and these who advocate for better ethics are a minority.
There are a lot more debates over the value companies like Adobe though, with more alternative software existing in the market. Edited by KorgC3 - October 26 2024 at 00:30 |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17547 |
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Hi, A lot of dissonance is based on accidental errors and often, or an intentional idea ... a good example is XTC, with Andy Partridge continually going against the grain ... which would trip AI really quick. In this example, let's face it ... it's the dissonance that makes that band special! I don't think that anyone can code something to be as off his rocker as Andy.
AND, no doubt, one of the easiest ways to tell if AI is present or not ... like the dissonance idea, this is something that often is over looked, and a lot of progressive bands change time signatures to odd time ones and back, simply to say ... "look ma ... I'm doing progressive music!". To my ear, these always sound forced and not very good, and they are not defined properly within a composing context at all ... it's almost ... break it up right here with it! It is one of the things that take my ears out of the listening for that band. But part of the issue is how folks don't know, or study, how signature changes can be done. If it makes sense musically it works, but if the musicality is an idea ... or worse ... just a lyric to make you think this and that ... the chances are that it will fall apart. I doubt AI can deal with this well, but then, most bands are not musically well defined to do so, either ... comparing it to a classical format with lots of instruments, the simplicity of a rock band with 3 instruments (drummer doesn't count ... since more than half of them will do exactly the same thing slower or faster. That's not drumming .. that's time keeping, and guess what AI is gonna do?
See above. so much of music in the past 25 years has been DAW based (so to speak) as it is way too metronomic and not free enough, to the point where it makes me think that AI has been around since the day that Sonar and Ableton were battling it out for all bedroom and bathroom composers.
Not sure about this, since someone might be aware of so many other musical scales all over the world and all of a sudden you get something that a Western Ear can not exactly duplicate ... but there it is! The idea of fusion, and other musical shifts ... is the same thing as before in time changes and compositional changes, ... depending on what they are based, which more often than not is the person singing the lyrics ... musically that is weak, as for 500 years, it has been the flow of the notes and chords that have told a story ... but now, none of the music matters if we allow the singer to be the one telling us what is happening, and the music? Who cares ... no one is listening anyway, and you and I will not LIKELY be whistling it any time soon!!!! Interesting how so many of us look at this ... I'm not sure the whole thing is bad, but it tells you one thing about the "modern human" ... not only do we not trust it, we belittle it, and think it is not intelligent enough ... in this sense the advent of AI is scary and often ridiculous ... but that's the way of technology and greed. I call it Childhood's End ... I don't think there is a winning formula here but for money making a lot of businesses will use it ... see the overabundance of the Adobe advertisements lately?
Edited by moshkito - October 25 2024 at 08:15 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
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Hi, I was thinking that a simple misspelling would do the trick and get many more follow-ups and ideas open. I imagine that it almost would not need a re-program, if the whole thing is aware of what it is doing, and I'm sure it is to a large degree.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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KorgC3
Forum Newbie Joined: June 24 2024 Location: Netherworld Status: Offline Points: 19 |
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I know that some musicians cynically capitalize on specific trends, but even this a conscious decision to make. A robot that's good at imitating humans is nonetheless a robot. It struggles to interpret purpose behind intent, because it's limited in senses. A human hears a storm or an earthquake, and then he will transcribe it as tremolo strings. For an AI algorithm, tremolo strings are just another information piece in the database. Without any application of intent, it will not use it in a human-like manner. Humans also do seemingly "random" things due to many varying factors, for example curiosity. A robot will do something random based solely on the notion of being random the way it's defined in its database.
Well, I already said in another post, that I personally find unaltered AI music to be very distinguishable. At that time I was considering only the compression and audio rendering, but after hearing more examples, I came to realize, that there are sensible technical differences in music produced by the available AI algorithms. I've counted six different composition elements that AI manages awkwardly: 1.Pitch control - Currently there doesn't seems to be separate dedicated engine to all the pitch effects. The AI just borrows from the database without properly differentiating between Vibrato and Portamento. It cannot do different scales properly either. 2.Round Robins - Having a different acoustic range of the same note seems like an easy task for an AI, yet, it kind of fails with it as-well. IDK if that's the compression or the over-reliance on reverb, but it basically applies it on each and every note by default giving its music a certain aura of cheapness. 3.Note dissonance - AI usually fails to form logic around this, and the melody balances between harmony and cacophony. 4.Time signature changes/odd time signatures - AI usually tries to apply an orderly logic to this. It fails miserably especially when different instruments do different time signatures at the same time. The shifts are usually unnatural or don't continue the melody logically. 5.Tempo Changes - AI generally seems to struggle with Tempo changes. Even with seemingly simple melodies, it either clips, or "breaks" the tempo illogically and unnaturally. Basically a change for the sake of change. 6.Genre Fusion/Shifts - Once again, in-spite of all the information fed to the AI, it cannot create even a basic genre hybrid, because it cannot truly understand the logic behind what makes different genres work. It struggles even mix distinguishable features of different genres, to something that sounds like a natural hybrid. It always leans towards one structure. I think that the basic fundamental reasons to this is that AI never questions itself. It never ask "why" things the way they are and "how" things can be done differently. Granted, if there are going to be multiple separate algorithms working in integration with each other, it could be possible to create a very human like robot. Currently it's just not the case, as the framework used by mainstream AI software, isn't based upon such a complex set of algorithms, but rather simple ones mainly made for comparison and imitation.
Edited by KorgC3 - October 24 2024 at 23:55 |
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siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic Joined: October 05 2013 Location: SFcaUsA Status: Offline Points: 15254 |
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^ good point. There will be many who vehemently oppose AI and make it a point to advertise they are the real deal, human creativity that is |
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Atavachron
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^ Yeah not exactly. If a respected artist releases new stuff and has a non-AI disclaimer, you either trust that or not. I don't see Bob Dylan's next album (assuming he has one) being anything other than authentic. Conversely some will be interested in AI-generated music, there will probably a whole subgenre of the stuff.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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siLLy puPPy
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If you listen to ChatGTP you'll hear that human errors, speech pauses, flubs and flaws are programmed into the whole thing to give it a convincingly faux authenticity In other words, just like photos and videos, music and really NOTHING can be trusted as real from here on :( |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17547 |
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hI, Ian Anderson, in that special he did for Rick Wakeman for his series of interviews, specified that "everything that can be done with "rock'n'roll" has been done". Which did not sit too well with RW since he is one of the most repetitive of players, with the same notes and chords that music history has identified for 500 years, more or less ... I kinda joke that he does not feel the music ... it's all chords and notes and let's make believe the identified ideas of what music is ... this is that and so on. In many ways, it gets to the point of how many combinations you can come up with out of one note, or chord, and we end up with various exercises, that in the end, probably sound the same, but feel different. I'm of the opinion that too much of music is special effects and this is the main reason why I state .. UNPLUG IT ... so you can see the meat of the work ... and a lot of metal bands will fail, but then, so will all the bands in the Red Lion circuit and all the other college circuits. I think that taking it "literally", that is one note is supposed to be this or sound like this, then we have a problem ... which an actor can easily fudge ... Keith Michell did a King Lear and there is a section that the same word is repeated ... and the director, Peter Brook, specified that in the 200/300 performances he did not ONCE said it the same way ... now you know the problem with rock'n'roll and how we tied ourselves to a staff, and now we can't move ... the issue is with the music instructors and the fact that music history made a bad habit of interpreting the music to be this and that ... the same thing about major and minor ... the bizarest of ideas in music!
Edited by moshkito - October 23 2024 at 19:34 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Atavachron
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^ And let's not forget the often unnoticed element of human mistakes, flubs, flaws, and failures, all which in fact add to the fascination & appreciation of art, not diminishes it.
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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The Dark Elf
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Not a fan of auto-tune as well -- and you can tell that auto-tuned music is a failure when you hear a singer trying to vocalize without it. What difference does this make to the listener of the music? Not much if you are a vacuous purchaser of bulk downloads of product. Product, not music in the strictest sense. It's rather like the difference between a home-cooked meal or an experience at a fine restaurant, as opposed to microwaved processed dreck or sodium-laden, corn syrupy crap plopped out of can. The cook is not involved, except to plop said crap from said can into a pan on a stove. Likewise, AI is an imitation of music not prepared by a musician. A painter paints a painting, a composer writes a sonata. These are human activities done by creative people. In the case of the painting, the artist may influence countless other artists with his masterpiece. He/she may even have a school of artists dedicated to his/her style. The composer may have his sonata played by symphonies. Eventually, a rock band may adapt the composition for progressive purposes and blare it in arenas, or a jazz group might vamp a few bars of it and then improvise a whole new piece off the original work. Humans playing music. AI generates code for product. Code me a Bach-like fugue. Plot me a Bernini-like sculpture and make it out of resin on a 3D printer. Whatever.
Edited by The Dark Elf - October 23 2024 at 17:17 |
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Cristi
Special Collaborator Crossover / Prog Metal Teams Joined: July 27 2006 Location: wonderland Status: Offline Points: 43873 |
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Jaketejas
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The problem with using AI to “create” progressive rock music is that there is nothing humanly progressive about it. It is regressive rock music. The brain 🧠 takes a back seat while an algorithm spits out hybrid morphings based on your prompts. It’s audio sausage making.
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Spitf1r3
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The musicians that keep recycling other musicians Ideas?!? There's a certain record label that's into power metal only, you go to their youtube channel and once you listened to 3 or 4 songs you listened them all. Since when is about how music is made and not the music anymore? Based on that I imagine what classical composers have thought when other genres appeared. Someone said, as a musician, that using AI to create music is pure evil. That is a supreme LOL statement just like ''Rock/Metal is evil music'' was. How many are aware that AI is already incorporated in software used in studios? You know, those plugins that emulate different hardware? Using AI in film making and music video clips is OK but when used in music not? Truth is the future might look like this: - projects that will be transparent about using AI in creating music (bashed and more or less ignored) projects that will never be seen live - projects that will not be transparent about using AI (bands that lost traction, lost inspiration, labels that own bands catalogues) that will train AI on previous released materials and release new material just to make even more money without artists receiving anything, Those kind of projects will be admired because consumer/listener bias and ignorance maybe. After all it comes from a label, right? - Projects that will use AI, from labels that hired some dudes and chicks that will receive basically nothing but fame being seen live making playback (in case of EDM, pop etc). That's my opinion and I have one more question to ask. Is it ok for someone to use AI to create music for his youtube channel? And finally this is another more or less AI project that has some strong progressive ellements on some songs and less in others. Happy listening or just happily ignore it! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8na3Pn0u_JLQ4mlXYpVXLA
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17547 |
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Hi, I do not think this is AI ... mostly because it would be literally impossible to teach the content of the AI computerized code to include all the emotions and details that you added ... and then put them together which would be an idea YOU CREATED that was not a part of the AI, which would likely put it together differently. If we're "talking" AI, then we should not be inferring that it will do this or that ... we don't know what was coded into it, and how it will respond according to its own internal rules and decisions. The mind, and your design and creativity, could be said to be a form of AI, however, it would not be considered so because it is not mechanical ... or as changing and re-considering a lot of things like you normally would to make it smoother ... as you find it while putting it together ... not to mention that tomorrow it will be slightly different and adjusted.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17547 |
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Hi, Shhhhhsssshhhhh ... the lawyers would be fighting for more AI so the record company appears to have better music than you know! And, as usual, we would spend our money on it, because some goon shows it listed as a top number of an album! I think a record company is more likely to abuse this than a single person out there ... who, also, would have a hard time getting people to hear it and see it! We see this on new things posted here on PA already ...
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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