Forum Home Forum Home > Progressive Music Lounges > Prog Recommendations/Featured albums
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Grendel is not Apocalypse in 9/8
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedGrendel is not Apocalypse in 9/8

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 04:52
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


Whether a note is an 1/8 or a 1/4 note depends on the general tempo of a piece. Of two notes of the same length one can be an 1/8 note, because it is used in a piece that is a largo, while in another piece that is an allegro the same note is a 1/4. Most classical composers give a bpm at the beginning of the piece, like 112 (which does not keep conductors from choosing their own tempo for it ; to make things more complicated there also is a theory by a German musicologist that the classical composers actually counted a backward and forward swing of the metronome as one single beat, which means their music music is being played double as fast today as was their intention; she has recorded some pieces like the Waldstein sonata in their "real" tempo; listening to them in comparison to the fast versions is a strange experience. )

So to say the rhythm in "Apocalypse in 9/8" is actually 9/4 only makes sense if you know what tempo the piece of music is in.

 

Sorry, BF - that isn't true.

Time signatures have nothing to do with tempo, and nor do notes.

A 1/8 note is always a 1/8 note. A Semibreve (4 crotchets) is considered a "whole" note.

For example, in 4/4, we have 4 1/4 notes to the bar.

If an Adagio or a Lento is in 4/4, then all beats are 1/4 beats.

If an Allegro or a Presto is in 4/4, then all beats are still 1/4 beats - the tempo indicates that the base time for the beats has changed, not the proportion.

I hope this clarifies it!

 

I've never read that theory about the metronome swing - it sounds interesting. Could you tell me where you read it?

Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7407
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 10:58
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


Whether a note is an 1/8 or a 1/4 note depends on the general tempo of a piece. Of two notes of the same length one can be an 1/8 note, because it is used in a piece that is a largo, while in another piece that is an allegro the same note is a 1/4. Most classical composers give a bpm at the beginning of the piece, like 112 (which does not keep conductors from choosing their own tempo for it ; to make things more complicated there also is a theory by a German musicologist that the classical composers actually counted a backward and forward swing of the metronome as one single beat, which means their music music is being played double as fast today as was their intention; she has recorded some pieces like the Waldstein sonata in their "real" tempo; listening to them in comparison to the fast versions is a strange experience. )

So to say the rhythm in "Apocalypse in 9/8" is actually 9/4 only makes sense if you know what tempo the piece of music is in.

 

Sorry, BF - that isn't true.

Time signatures have nothing to do with tempo, and nor do notes.

A 1/8 note is always a 1/8 note. A Semibreve (4 crotchets) is considered a "whole" note.

For example, in 4/4, we have 4 1/4 notes to the bar.

If an Adagio or a Lento is in 4/4, then all beats are 1/4 beats.

If an Allegro or a Presto is in 4/4, then all beats are still 1/4 beats - the tempo indicates that the base time for the beats has changed, not the proportion.

I hope this clarifies it!

 

I've never read that theory about the metronome swing - it sounds interesting. Could you tell me where you read it?

Sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood me, Certif1ed. This is not what I said. I never doubted that being an 1/8 note has nothing to do with the tempo; in fact this is what I wanted to point out. But whether it is a 9/4 measure or a 9/8 has very much to do with the given tempo, and this is simply because the set tempo defines how many bars there are within a given time. (Actually it is mathematically a little more complicated, but I'll skip that).

As to the metronome swing theory: I didn't read about it, I heard a radio feature about it. It was first postulated by musicologist Willem Retze Talsma; Grete Wehmeyer and Clemens von Gleich are two other musicologists who are of the same opinion. They call their theory "Tempo Giusto", "Right Tempo".



Edited by BaldFriede


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
Biggles View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 18 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 705
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:06

The only thing I have to say about Marillion is that if I want to listen to Genesis, then I will listen to Genesis.

The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.

Back to Top
goose View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 20 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4097
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:13
Originally posted by Biggles Biggles wrote:

The only thing I have to say about Marillion is that if I want to listen to Genesis, then I will listen to Genesis.

I thought you were going to say something about Marillion...
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:40

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Whether a note is an 1/8 or a 1/4 note depends on the general tempo of a piece. Of two notes of the same length one can be an 1/8 note, because it is used in a piece that is a largo, while in another piece that is an allegro the same note is a 1/4.

Could you explain then? I must have mis-read it.

Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7407
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:50
Have a look here for the explanation of "tempo giusto": http://www.tempogiusto.de/ (there is a button on the left named "English site" side where you can get the explanation in English).


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:51

Originally posted by yargh yargh wrote:

Without getting into bashing Marillion too much more than I already have, I would like to point out the problem of claiming that they "kept progressive going in the '80s."  They didn't -- they kept elements of the '70s alive in the '80s.  Real progressive music kept progressing -- King Crimson, for example, kept progressive going.  Univers Zero, Art Zoyd, This Heat, Art Bears and an emerging Japanese progressive scene kept progressive alive in the '80s.  Not Marillion or Pallas or Pendragon -- they were about paying homage to progressive's surface elements and not really making progressive music.    

This is only partly true;

Marillion and the other Neo-Prog bands did keep Prog Rock going in the 1980s - that's a fact. They drew new audiences into Prog Rock, who were then able to explore and enjoy the roots of these new bands.

They also had the beneficial side-effect of keeping elements of 1970s Prog Rock alive.

Using Marillion as the example, they kept Progressing - their music from the 1980s has 1980s stamped all over it. It's Prog for the 1980s - that's the point. Twelfth Night were one of the greatest examples of this - compare them to any "Classic" prog band and get laughed at.

King Crimson played a different style - and that was also progressive to some extent, when they weren't stuck in a rut, at which times it wasn't.

Finally, the similarities between Marillion and Genesis are so superficial that the constant comparisons are just silly, and obviously based on what was printed in the media at the time, not reality. I mean: "Garden Party" sounds exactly like "The Knife", doesn't it?

It's interesting to note that the only comments making this dubious comparison are just statements with no backup whatsoever. One might suspect that absolutely no thought went into them.

 

 

Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7407
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 11:59
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Whether a note is an 1/8 or a 1/4 note depends on the general tempo of a piece. Of two notes of the same length one can be an 1/8 note, because it is used in a piece that is a largo, while in another piece that is an allegro the same note is a 1/4.

Could you explain then? I must have mis-read it.

Isn't it self-explanatory? One piece is a largo, which means that its tempo is slower; an 1/8 note in it will be slower than an 1/8 note in an allegro; in fact the length of an 1/8 note in a largo is the same (more or less, because, as you can see from the metronome scale I added in my first post, there is still quite a range about the tempo of a largo) as the length of a 1/4 note in an allegro (provided all other musical parameters are the same).



Edited by BaldFriede


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 17173
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:04

^ isn't it the other way round? a 1/8 note in a largo should be about as long as a 1/4 note in an allegro, assuming that the allegro is about twice as fast (in terms of bpm) as the largo.

Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 17173
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:07

Incidentally: I bought an Ivanhoe CD this week - greak stuff. One of the songs features alternating 15/16 and 14/16 (equals 7/8). I was a little surprised at first that a band like Ivanhoe would use that complex a signature, but it's true.

Back to Top
Lindsay Lohan View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member


Joined: May 25 2005
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 3254
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:08
Oh you musical guys and your musical terms   I tried to learn that stuff once but i thought it was friggin boring and  unnecessary i found

Edited by maidenrulez
Back to Top
BaldFriede View Drop Down
Prog Reviewer
Prog Reviewer
Avatar

Joined: June 02 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 7407
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:09
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ isn't it the other way round? a 1/8 note in a largo should be about as long as a 1/4 note in an allegro, assuming that the allegro is about twice as fast (in terms of bpm) as the largo.

That's what I said; did you misread my post?



BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
Back to Top
MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 22 2005
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 17173
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:13
Yes, apparently I did ... sorry! Of course you were right all along.
Back to Top
Pablosnerudas View Drop Down
Forum Newbie
Forum Newbie


Joined: November 04 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 12:29

Yes, Apocalypse in 9/8 is in 9/8

Yes, Marillion's Grendel was derived from the above - but in 4/4 because there is no way that Fish has ever been able to sing anything in a slightly odd time signature.

Yes, Marillion were initially heavily influenced by older, 70's prog bands (as were Pallas and Twelfth Night)

But no, they did not keep prog alive during the 80's - they did as much for 80's prog as Rush did with Grace Under Pressure (God, that album still churns my stomach). Marillion just kept reminding us what we missed because Collins got out from behind that drum kit!! Just as Spock's Beard reminded us in the 90's of what Yes could have been doing if only they hadn't let Trevor Horn near them.

Crimson, on the other hand, produced seminal works during the 80's that embraced modern sounds and technologies and yet still kept their musical inaccessible to the Cheltenham Average.

I don't think I ever did glid before ...
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 13:04
Originally posted by Pablosnerudas Pablosnerudas wrote:

Yes, Apocalypse in 9/8 is in 9/8

Yes, Marillion's Grendel was derived from the above

No - only the backing riff to the section under discussion.

 - but in 4/4 because there is no way that Fish has ever been able to sing anything in a slightly odd time signature.

That's not the reason, that's a hypothesis. Fish sings around the heavily accented 4/4 rhythm freely, which discounts this "Fish-bashing" entirely.

Yes, Marillion were initially heavily influenced by older, 70's prog bands (as were Pallas and Twelfth Night)

No, Twelfth Night were not. And the influence is clearly not heavy on Marillion's very first album.

But no, they did not keep prog alive during the 80's - they did as much for 80's prog as Rush did with Grace Under Pressure (God, that album still churns my stomach). Marillion just kept reminding us what we missed because Collins got out from behind that drum kit!!

Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it.

Does "Chealsea Monday" sound like "The Battle of Epping Forest"?

Of course not!

Just as Spock's Beard reminded us in the 90's of what Yes could have been doing if only they hadn't let Trevor Horn near them.

Ummm.... there's something bad in this? Yes are overrated anyway.

Crimson, on the other hand, produced seminal works during the 80's that embraced modern sounds and technologies and yet still kept their musical inaccessible to the Cheltenham Average.

Oh, so that's what this is about? Marillion (and much of Neo Prog) were accessible, thus derisory and worthy of any smear that made them sound less than the creators of fine and original souding music that they originally were?

It all becomes clear!

King Crimson were inconsistent during the 1980s and got stuck in ruts. Some of it was superlative, some of it was dross.

Back to Top
Biggles View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: June 18 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 705
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 13:20
Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Pablosnerudas Pablosnerudas wrote:

Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it.

Marillion DEFINITELY sounds like Genesis. Trust me on this one.

The crux of the biscuit is the apostrophe.

Back to Top
Tony R View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1001972
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 14:12
Originally posted by Biggles Biggles wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Pablosnerudas Pablosnerudas wrote:

Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it.

Marillion DEFINITELY sounds like Genesis. Trust me on this one.

Give examples or your statement is pointless,and our trust in you would be misguided....

Back to Top
Prosciutto View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: September 23 2005
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 123
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 04 2005 at 15:39

In the beginning Marillion were influenced by Genesis: Fish wearing make up, that riff on Grendel was a naive rip off from Apocalypse in 9/8. The Genesis influence is also noticeable but in some minor way on Script for a Jester Tear, there're also influences by Camel (Steve Rothery on Chelsea Monday and Forgotten Sons sounds like Andy Latimer).

Some years later we can hear "Steve Hackett" on Warm Wet Circles but I think Steve Rothery wanted to pay some tribute this time.

Nobody can deny those influences on the early days of Marillion, fortunately soon they found their own sound.



Edited by Prosciutto
Don't be a prog-hole, please...
Back to Top
Certif1ed View Drop Down
Special Collaborator
Special Collaborator
Avatar
Honorary Collaborator

Joined: April 08 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 7559
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2005 at 16:11
Originally posted by Biggles Biggles wrote:

Originally posted by Certif1ed Certif1ed wrote:

Originally posted by Pablosnerudas Pablosnerudas wrote:

Nonsense. This is going back to the silly "Marillion sound like Genesis" argument, which is merely regurgitating the music press at the time - there is no truth in it.

Marillion DEFINITELY sounds like Genesis. Trust me on this one.

No they DEFINITELY don't. Trust me on this one.

Does "Fugazi" sound like "The Musical Box"?

Nope.

 

Back to Top
salmacis View Drop Down
Forum Senior Member
Forum Senior Member

Content Addition

Joined: April 10 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3928
Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 05 2005 at 16:40

I have to say I've never heard anything by Marillion that I would say sounded like a clone of a Genesis song. I must say it took me a little while longer to get into Marillion than some of the other neo-prog bands, but I found that was because in all honesty, Marillion were more original than IQ or Pendragon were. Sure, there are elements in Marillion's sound that are akin to Genesis, but there are also traces of Pink Floyd and VDGG in there too, yet neither are explicit enough to be labelled 'soundalike'.

In fact, 'Misplaced Childhood', alongside Camel's 'Nude', is one of the only 80s prog albums I would label a totally flawless album.

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.01
Copyright ©2001-2014 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 1.000 seconds.