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Topic ClosedWe -need- progressive rap.

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gdub411 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 11 2005 at 23:58

Originally posted by Nipsey88 Nipsey88 wrote:

Originally posted by gdub411 gdub411 wrote:

Actually it has been done. Burnt Noodle raps in one of their songs with very experimental music going on in the backround


Hmm, have heard the name but have never heard their stuff. I certainly will check it out now.

I must warn you. It is mostly improvisational music that happened to be recorded by a few musicians who were "noodling" around...hence the name.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 01:18
Originally posted by greenback greenback wrote:

Originally posted by Man Overboard Man Overboard wrote:

At the very least, it would be insanely awesome if there was a single -album- that had the intention of fusing prog with rap...  full band, tons of ambition...  it could be amazing.  40 minutes of something that would surprise the hell out of everyone.  

you'll have to work EXTREMELY hard to convince me!Confused

Don't even try it with me, both genres are simply not compatible. Some rap (that I heven't heard yet) may be interesting, but no way I could ever believe in it.

Iván

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 01:23
some rather closed-minded opinions coming in here....

you really never know.  it's definitely possible.  there's a lot of great music around.  keep your ears open.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 01:35

Golden Spiral wrote:

Quote some rather closed-minded opinions coming in here.... 

Why closed minded?

I judge Rap by the general rule, by the 100% of rap I listened, I know people always talk about some great obscure Rap bands, but nobody can create a sub-genre based in exceptions.

The  essense of Rap is to be a mainly vocal style, created to be repetitive and absolutely commercial.

There may be good rap? I don't know, not an expert but it's possible.

Can I consider both genres can blend? No, a rap band that assumes Prog structure would cease to be Rap, in Rap the virtuosism of the musicians is not important (again there may be exceptions) but in Progressive Rock it's esential.

I can listen and enjoy many genres of music but I don't find the need to try to mix water and oil when we know both have different densities (structure) and it's impossible. If you like Rap, OK, enjoy it, but don't try to convince people it can blend with Progressive Rock as a genre.

And much less call closed minded to the ones that have been fans of an almost underground and unpopular genre for decades, listening something as Prog Rock that 99% of the people hate and/or ignore is far from being close minded.

Iván



Edited by ivan_2068
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 01:44
Never fallen in love with rap music!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 01:48
Red Hot Chili Peppers and Faith No More come
close!

Red Hots mix some rap style lyrics that are both
obscure and intelligent(in a narcotic/sex majik kinda
way, off kilter guitar and a hell of a groove or
meaningful mellow songs that border on paisley and
colors.

Faith have the ability to create an epic and are
intelligent at times and know how to kill!
Even if it aint pure prog or pure rap it is about as
good as intelligent/thash as the record companies
will allow.

Remember if we pay you, we own you!
Dont blame the musician, blame society,
government and big business! Remember there are
enough musicians/minds in the world to produce
anything you want to hear only government/big
business can deny you of that pleasure. Seems like
we fought this war in the 70's and lost to the gay nazi
militia movement!




blah, blah, bawh

Edited by DallasBryan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 01:57
Originally posted by DallasBryan DallasBryan wrote:

Red Hot Chili Peppers and Faith No More come
close!


RHCP

Faith No More ... They're OK, but prog-rap they are not.

@ivan--
It seems to me that you're thinking of some sort of hip-hop that sounds like progressive rock.  What I'm talking about is hip-hop that compares to normal rap in the same way that prog rock compares to normal rock.  Imagine a hip-hop group that uses special instruments, experiments with electronics and effects (beyond the standard ones), uses different vocal techniques (i.e. improvisation and effects), makes long epic songs with plenty of inventive beats, rhythm changes and instrumental interludes.  It would still sound like hip hop (or trip-hop), but it would be like nothing that's ever been done.  it's possible.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 02:05

Quote Imagine a hip-hop group that uses special instruments, experiments with electronics and effects (beyond the standard ones), uses different vocal techniques (i.e. improvisation and effects), makes long epic songs with plenty of inventive beats, rhythm changes and instrumental interludes.  It would still sound like hip hop (or trip-hop), but it would be like nothing that's ever been done.  it's possible..

Things are determined by their essense, if all about you're talking is added to Rap or Hip Hop then it would go against Rap or Hip Hop essence and would be something different.

If a modern Classical Composer starts playing with Gothic Classical instruments, Gothic tempo and Gothic structure he will cease to be modern, his music will be Classical Gothic done today but would never be considered Modern Classical.

Iván

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 02:10
updated my post!

Bush - Deconstructed with more rap-style lyrics or
Buckethead - Colma, Primal
Scream with rap lyrics?

Ivan, makes a valid point.

Goth rap, music may have new avenues to explore!


Edited by DallasBryan
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 08:00
I've always dreamed of discovering a progressive reggae band from
Jamaica. The nearest I've found is some Afrorock outfits from Nigeria.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 08:07
Well, it's not exactly what you're talking about, but with my "we do just jam sessions" band Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata, we are planning a session with an MC doing some freestyle on our improvised beats. Talk about improvised vocals, or prog-jam hip hop, or whatever you want. Also, with the same guy, I'm working on a single hip hop track which will blend time changes, dodecaphony and some organ solos.

We are just so f**kin' project
Dangerous to be closely minded by a closed mind.
Ordine Geometrico Demonstrata - the ultimate attempt at you will to listen.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 08:18

No way,rap is for suckersI`m not really into categorising music,but if you mean rap like in talking lyrics and that other sh*t.No wayAnd by the way,before someone starts saying that i`m ignorant and so on.I really am not,its just that talking music is not something i see in the future for prog.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 08:42
Originally posted by mr.burns mr.burns wrote:

No way,rap is for suckersI`m not really into categorising music,but if you mean rap like in talking lyrics and that other sh*t.No wayAnd by the way,before someone starts saying that i`m ignorant and so on.I really am not,its just that talking music is not something i see in the future for prog.


So explain to me how you're not ignorant, then.

And Ivan, what rap artists are you familar with? When you say that rap is fundamentally commercial, it leads me to believe that you've only heard the commercial rappers, none of whom I find to be representative of the genre as a whole. Underground rap isn't an exception at all, it represents the majority of music in the genre... just because most people haven't heard it doesn't mean there isn't a ton of it out there. It's like me hearing We Can't Dance and Owner of a Lonely Heart on the radio and judging prog based on that kind of thing. Obviously, as educated fans of the genre, we know that's not what prog is, but somebody could have the same attitude as you and refuse to believe that anything good is out there based on their bad experiences with the commercial side of the genre.

And for the record, underground (henceforth known as "good") rap artists and their fans dislike mainstream rap for the very same reasons we all do: it's musically uninteresting, the lyrics are generally terrible, and it's repetitive and derivative beyond belief. So before you go on dismissing these artists you've never bothered to actually listen to, perhaps it would help to know that they have the same philosophies regarding the genre that you do.

I'm not saying you have to become a rap fan all of a sudden, but I don't see why you're so adamantly against the idea of progressive rap. It's certainly possible; I'm sure it already exists in some form, somewhere out there. But for now, I don't see why you can't at least be open to the concept.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 08:51
iI knew this was comingThese days its so important to be politically correct!I cant rap contributing anything to prog music,and thats it.I think 90% of the people here,deep down agrees with me.For gods sake,taste the word.Rap,for crying out loud its rap.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 09:45
Originally posted by mr.burns mr.burns wrote:

iI knew this was comingThese days its so important to be politically correct!I cant rap contributing anything to prog music,and thats it.I think 90% of the people here,deep down agrees with me.For gods sake,taste the word.Rap,for crying out loud its rap.

Yes, and I should think that true fans of progressive music would embrace the idea of something completely new like this, but alas, our community's true closed-mindedness is showing through once again. It's clear that you don't even have a reason to be against it - your argument against rap is "it's rap." I'm perfectly aware of what it is, I just don't see what's wrong with it.

And who said anything about being politically correct? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 09:47
Originally posted by Ty1020 Ty1020 wrote:


Originally posted by mr.burns mr.burns wrote:

iI knew this was comingThese
days its so important to be politically correct!I cant rap contributing
anything to prog music,and thats it.I think 90% of the people here,deep
down agrees with me.For gods sake,taste the word.Rap,for crying out
loud its rap.

Yes, and I should think that true fans of progressive music would
embrace the idea of something completely new like this, but alas, our
community's true closed-mindedness is showing through once again. It's
clear that you don't even have a reason to be against it - your
argument against rap is "it's rap." I'm perfectly aware of what it is,
I just don't see what's wrong with it.

And who said anything about being politically correct? 




so do you like rap music then ?
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 10:11

I've never met a rap band/artist I liked. But I'd like to.

The Roots, I've heard a little of their stuff, and it sounds pretty cool. I'd check them out, certainly.

 

I amend my previous statement: I do like some Outkast material, but I'd never call it "intelligent art music". I just wish rap could be a little more MUSICAL. As opposed to making "anthems" for teenagers who like to think they're sex gods? Wasn't rap originally supposed to be rebellious and innovative? Like punk, a little, it's now very crass and tame.


Life is like an avantgarde play because tuna.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 10:15
I like some rap bands but was sl*gged because I mentioned this fact


Ah well as long as I can sleep at night
Originally posted by darkshade:

Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 10:17
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Golden Spiral wrote:

Quote some rather closed-minded opinions coming in here.... 

Why closed minded?

I judge Rap by the general rule, by the 100% of rap I listened, I know people always talk about some great obscure Rap bands, but nobody can create a sub-genre based in exceptions.

The  essense of Rap is to be a mainly vocal style, created to be repetitive and absolutely commercial.

There may be good rap? I don't know, not an expert but it's possible.

Can I consider both genres can blend? No, a rap band that assumes Prog structure would cease to be Rap, in Rap the virtuosism of the musicians is not important (again there may be exceptions) but in Progressive Rock it's esential.

I can listen and enjoy many genres of music but I don't find the need to try to mix water and oil when we know both have different densities (structure) and it's impossible. If you like Rap, OK, enjoy it, but don't try to convince people it can blend with Progressive Rock as a genre.

And much less call closed minded to the ones that have been fans of an almost underground and unpopular genre for decades, listening something as Prog Rock that 99% of the people hate and/or ignore is far from being close minded.

Iván

This is a completly ignorant statement. The essence of rap is actually the same as the essence of blues and gospel music. It comes straight form the heart. An expression of how the artist is feeling. very emotional. That is the essence of rap. Mainstream rap has taken that and made it crap. But to say the the purpose of rap is to be commercial is bullsh*t. This art was created in the days of HairMetal. I'm sure noone though of it as becoming mainstream music. It jsut happened like that

There is most defffinatly good rap somewhere out there.

Rap music can blend with any genre. If you take the same vocal and lyrical style and apply it to a prog band( but wiht a little more rap/hiphop groove in the drums and synth and bass). A prog band in its essence is experimental and innovative. A prog band can play rap beats that shift time signitures and key saignitures and goes into complicated passages but still resemble the music of rap and hip hop.

Then you say that we shouldnt mix oil and water. What the fuc k do you think Progressive rock is?! " lets take ideas form classical and fusion and put them into Rock and Roll" " Are you crazy?! that's like mixing oil and water! that will never work" BUT IT DOES!!! And it was that mix of oila dn water that brought to here to this site.

 

prog is about be openminded to everything! No matter how farfetched it seems, prog fans embrace it because thats what its all about. Trial and Error. We dont hang around formulas and sameness We innovate and complicate. we fuse and redirect. Its people like you that slow down the revoloution of music. We cannot be closed minded if we want to continue prog.

I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 12 2005 at 10:23
Originally posted by ivan_2068 ivan_2068 wrote:

Quote Imagine a hip-hop group that uses special instruments, experiments with electronics and effects (beyond the standard ones), uses different vocal techniques (i.e. improvisation and effects), makes long epic songs with plenty of inventive beats, rhythm changes and instrumental interludes.  It would still sound like hip hop (or trip-hop), but it would be like nothing that's ever been done.  it's possible..

Things are determined by their essense, if all about you're talking is added to Rap or Hip Hop then it would go against Rap or Hip Hop essence and would be something different.

If a modern Classical Composer starts playing with Gothic Classical instruments, Gothic tempo and Gothic structure he will cease to be modern, his music will be Classical Gothic done today but would never be considered Modern Classical.

Iván

Oh come on!  What were talking about would be a moderne compser using a gothic structure to incorperate and and new flavour to his moderne ideas. and that would be considered Moderne Classical

I can strangle a canary in a tin can and it would be really original, but that wouldn't save it from sounding like utter sh*t.
-Stone Beard
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